Fahrenheit 9/11

[Jaan]

Some final thoughts on this whole issue:

I used to be a Democrat and I loved bashing Bush. Now, I have becomed disillusioned with the whole Democratic party. They cannot stand up and say, "This is what I believe in..." They flip-flop over the issues and not once they defended what they actually were supposed to represent.

I am not a Republican either. I will be surprised if everyone here knows the difference between a liberal and Democrat, a conservative vs. Republican. I believe in a women's right to choose, I am pro-choice. I believe in stem cell research and funding great technology. As to healthcare, I will not comment because I am not at the age when I need to be worrying about it.

I do know that it is not fair to sue companies because "Oh, I drove by your factory 20 years ago and I have cancer now. You owe me."
I do know that it is not fair to consumers when companies do not spend that 10 cents and their products result in unncessary fatalities.

It is so easy for someone to find a scapegoat (such as Bush) and blame him for everything. People don't stop and look at the reasons behind it. And, this what I did when I replied to all the "Anybody But Bush" posts.

If you want to be heard, get involved and do something about it yourself. I can sit in front of my computer and complain what is wrong with everything in the world, too.

Jaan



P.S. I forgot to mention it in my previous two posts - Yee haw!

[Jaan]

Well said Jaan, n i thank you for specifying Michael Moore atleast once in yer posts. after-all, isnt this about his docu?

Saddam Hussien was a threat to America, was repressing his people and not following the UN sanctions.

kindly explain tht to me. its true tht the ppl were repressed under his rule but they had their country. not following the UN sanctions? how?

I will start another thread!

p.s: i dun want this to become nethin else than a thread to talk abt the movie/docu.. so, plz.. take the arguments elsewhere

Oh! I already posted another reply to all this. Sorry, mammu!



Jaan

[igiveadamn]

What's all this fuss about anyways? USA is NOT our country, so to hell with them. Who cares as long as it won't concern the one billion people at home???

[Jaan]

What's all this fuss about anyways? USA is NOT our country, so to hell with them. Who cares as long as it won't concern the one billion people at home???

It is not "fuss," just asserting my views on some posts. USA is might not be YOUR country, but I am residing here so don't damn me, please.

You should because America cares because India is a nuclear power. Understood?



Good.



Jaan

[igiveadamn]

It is not "fuss," just asserting my views on some posts. USA is might not be YOUR country, but I am residing here so don't damn me, please.

I never knew that residing in some foreign country made that YOUR country!

You should because America cares because India is a nuclear power. Understood?

Good.

Jaan

Not understood, please enlighten me.

[Jaan]

It is not "fuss," just asserting my views on some posts. USA is might not be YOUR country, but I am residing here so don't damn me, please.

I never knew that residing in some foreign country made that YOUR country!

*sigh* Joke dude, I was attempting to say that you damning America damns me because I live here.
Anyhow, anything becomes "YOUR" as you put it, if you care enough about it. I am not a sadist who wishes bad things to other people because I don't like them enough...everyone makes mistakes.

[quote""]

You should because America cares because India is a nuclear power. Understood?

Good.

Jaan

Not understood, please enlighten me.[/quote]

Um, it likes someone is interested in you because you are suddenly richer? That is the most similiar parallel I can think of. Still don't understand?



Jaan

P.S. Sorry Sujatha, for digressing off topic on this thread!

[igiveadamn]

It is not "fuss," just asserting my views on some posts. USA is might not be YOUR country, but I am residing here so don't damn me, please.

I never knew that residing in some foreign country made that YOUR country!

*sigh* Joke dude, I was attempting to say that you damning America damns me because I live here.
Anyhow, anything becomes "YOUR" as you put it, if you care enough about it. I am not a sadist who wishes bad things to other people because I don't like them enough...everyone makes mistakes.

[quote""]

You should because America cares because India is a nuclear power. Understood?

Good.

Jaan

Not understood, please enlighten me.

Um, it likes someone is interested in you because you are suddenly richer? That is the most similiar parallel I can think of. Still don't understand?

Jaan
P.S. Sorry Sujatha, for digressing off topic on this thread! [/quote]Er ignorance is bliss. By the way i like dubya too...

[Jaan]

LOL.



Jaan

[Reality,,its here.Accept it.]

I just couldn’t let this discussion be without leaving my comments on it.

Well firstly I have a point to make here regarding the subject of the discussion. Some people are of the opinion that this discussion should limit itself to the reviewing of the merits and demerits of the documentary-Fahrenheit 9/11. But I think since the subject of the documentary itself was the discussion of the presidency of George ‘Dubya’ Bush, the deviations are valid and unavoidable.

Coming to the documentary, to put it in simple terms it is a really well made documentary and it serves the purpose a documentary is actually meant to do – inform the viewers about the topic it documents. As to other purpose it was supposed to serve, we all know now that it dint. I wish we had filmmakers in India with the guts and conviction that Michael Moore has. He believed in something and went about doing something about it. He deserves praise atleast for that. And since its made a person with strong views about what he believes in , it will be biased.

Can u see someone in India making a documentary about - The Bofors issue , The 1984 Delhi riots , The Gujarat carnage , The Godhra incident and The Emergency to name a few. And we have filmmakers saying that we don’t have good stories in India. I don’t see any coming out in the distant future.

Now about the supposed stupidity of the American public in electing George Bush for a second term. Well one thing most people forget is that American people elected a President for the United States of America , not for the World. So they have their concerns first. Why would a person in rural USA be concerned about whats happening in Iraq or Afganisthan? Frankly how many people here in India thought about the IPKF in Srilanka when voting in the 1989 general elections?( i.e if anybody here actually votes.)

Even here in India when we go to vote a lot of local issues dominate our preferences including the caste equations, so how can we expect the American people (who we assume are anyway stupid than us) to be more rational and vote with a worldview? So I think its unfair of us to critisize the American public for the choice of their President.

I have my views about who is better or who is not , but I know that most of us don’t know the entire spectrum of the issues at hand, so my views would be as good as half baked potatoes. I have a friend in Oregon who said they had 49 different issues to vote on in this election , that’s a lot of issues.

Finally, why are we Indians complaining about George Bush? As far as I know he is good for us , I mean Indians in India and the NRIs. Firstly , he is pro-outsourcing ( atleast not as anti as Kerry is – I mean if u believed in Kerry ) which means lots of more jobs for Indians in India. Secondly, he is pro-rich and his tax cuts benefit the rich income groups of which the NRIs form a good chunk.( I read some where that only 18% of the US population makes more than 100,000 $ a year, and most Indian families make that much as far as I know). Further more the relations between India and the USA haven’t deteriorated from the Clinton years , so what are we complaining against?

People want wars to end , everybody does. But it has been an constant feature of the history of mankind , so I think its better to realize that wars are going to happen as long as the homosapien species is not extinct.

[igiveadamn]

Finally, why are we Indians complaining about George Bush? As far as I know he is good for us , I mean Indians in India and the NRIs. Firstly , he is pro-outsourcing ( atleast not as anti as Kerry is – I mean if u believed in Kerry ) which means lots of more jobs for Indians in India. Secondly, he is pro-rich and his tax cuts benefit the rich income groups of which the NRIs form a good chunk.( I read some where that only 18% of the US population makes more than 100,000 $ a year, and most Indian families make that much as far as I know). Further more the relations between India and the USA haven’t deteriorated from the Clinton years , so what are we complaining against?
People want wars to end , everybody does. But it has been an constant feature of the history of mankind , so I think its better to realize that wars are going to happen as long as the homosapien species is not extinct.

Bravo!!!!!!!!!! . That's exactly why we should like Bushy.

[Reality,,its here.Accept it.]

Second part is serious. It is a surprising fact that totally unemployed people in USA have joined US Army/ Joining US Army.

In Prasadz only 50% of the seats were occupied.
Before entering inside the hall, one of the Prasadz staff was commenting that movie is not good.

-



-Its mostly the unemployed and underprevilaged people who end up joining the army in any country not just the USA.( we are talking about the non-commissioned ranks here).Can u imagine any rich guy joining the army? ( in real life, not in Lakshya.)



-You shouldn’t consider the views of people who think it is a movie in the first place. There is a difference btw movie and documentary.

[Habitual Perfectionist]

You're quite close there reality...except for the fact that there are filmmakers who make films on all issues. The bofors issue may not have any films made on it per se....but that kind of corruption is seen in umpteen films. There were films galore made on the Gujarat riots...Anand Patwardhan made an award winning documentary on that subject. Govind Nihalani made Dev, which had a true-to-life depiction of the riots and the hand of the political class in them.



Talking of it, how many Fahrenheit-9/11 kind of movies have you seen coming out of US?

[Reality,,its here.Accept it.]

its a total shock how the ameicans could vote for bush after all that has been shown in the movie. but then the americans are americans and what i have been told is that all the americans consider it their right to protect democracy. and bush has brainwashed them into beleiving that what he did was for peace. its the big brother attitude that made them vote for the mass murder bush. theres also a book by michael moore titled "Dude wheres my country ". interesting read. he made the movie on the lines of the book. and yes the americans are proud morons.now thats and oxymoron there .

- Well that someone who told you that about all Americans is wrong , proof – Michael Moore and all those who voted against Bush.

- ‘Big brother attitude’ – every country acts as a big brother in its own realm of influence. India tries to be a big brother to Srilanka , Nepal etc.

- Michael Moore wrote an other book ‘Stupid White Men’ which makes us realize that every country is rotten in its own way and governments don’t care.

- Proud Moron is an oxymoron..??????? i am not sure.

[igiveadamn]

You're quite close there reality...except for the fact that there are filmmakers who make films on all issues. The bofors issue may not have any films made on it per se....but that kind of corruption is seen in umpteen films. There were films galore made on the Gujarat riots...Anand Patwardhan made an award winning documentary on that subject. Govind Nihalani made Dev, which had a true-to-life depiction of the riots and the hand of the political class in them.

Talking of it, how many Fahrenheit-9/11 kind of movies have you seen coming out of US?

Americans are major hypocrites who believe that everything they do is right. That's the reason majority of the hollywood movies or documentaries are always depicting the 'American' way of life or the 'American' spirit. It's only recently that people like Michael Moore have started making interesting documentaries. And for people who think that Moore is just a Bush-basher, I recommend 'Roger and Me', 'Bowling for Columbine', 'Canadian Bacon' all by Michael Moore. Each movie is on a different issue.

[Reality,,its here.Accept it.]

You're quite close there reality...except for the fact that there are filmmakers who make films on all issues. The bofors issue may not have any films made on it per se....but that kind of corruption is seen in umpteen films. There were films galore made on the Gujarat riots...Anand Patwardhan made an award winning documentary on that subject. Govind Nihalani made Dev, which had a true-to-life depiction of the riots and the hand of the political class in them.

Talking of it, how many Fahrenheit-9/11 kind of movies have you seen coming out of US?

- well frankly i havent seen many but i know that there are a lot more made which dont make headlines like this one did. ( Michael Moore made "who framed roger rabbit?" which won a lot of awards - havent seen it though).

- i will have to get hold of the documentaries made in india , do u have any idea where we can get them ? or have u too just read about them in the newspapers ?

- And real-life inspired movies arent close to the real truth , thats what i noticed.

[Reality,,its here.Accept it.]

the documentary i mentioned by Micheal Moore is "Roger and I". sorry for the mistake , it must be the lack of sleep finally getting to me.

Thanks due to 'igiveadamn' , saw ur post and realised my mistake.

[Habitual Perfectionist]

- i will have to get hold of the documentaries made in india , do u have any idea where we can get them ? or have u too just read about them in the newspapers ?

Just keep myself updated through magazines, newspapers, the net and especially this forum.

- And real-life inspired movies arent close to the real truth , thats what i noticed.

Maybe in most of the cases. But there is a sizeable number of sensible films made on a variety of subjects. And not in all cases are real life movies away from the real truth. Dev is a very good example of a film sticking to the truth. Manthan is another movie that comes to mind immediately. Will have more names as and when I remember them.

[Reality,,its here.Accept it.]

LOL

On topic...what Jaan said here is correct. Americans...poor them...as I said earlier too....had a pitiful choice to make. An idiot versus a glib-talking good for nothing. I'm sure if Kerry had some strong republican competition....he would have hardly made any splashes. Kerry had it lucky. He achieved whatever he did solely because his competition was an utter nincompoop.



P.S. : And vice versa.

-- People all over the world have pitiful choices to make. Look at what Blair turned out to be in UK. And did we have any choice to speak of here in India?

[Reality,,its here.Accept it.]

Anyway, all I care about is the end of the war. If he can do that (which is like asking pigs to fly backwards) then I will have no problem with him being president. Also the gas prices are a big concern nationwide, I hate paying $2.29 a gallon. He should stabalize the economy, provide health plans for the elderly and children and increase the teacher's pay, whicle funding public schools. These are things needed immediately-------SO GET TO WORK COUNTRY BOY!!

- Pigs don’t fly forwards too , so what u are asking for is a little too much.J

- About the oil prices, that’s what country boy is working on just give him sometime to control the second largest producer of oil in the world-Iraq.

- Your wish list is difficult for even santaclaus to fulfill.

[Reality,,its here.Accept it.]

Most of the votes came from southern states, where people are religious and see him as a 'good 'ol down home, ranch-raised religious boy. He tends to use God a lot in his speeches, addresses, debates, etc which won him many hearts as well as votes.

- God's name is evoked in a lot of countries in elections and otherwise and is not frowned up. Its only in india that its looked upon as a crime. even by the USA. Classic case of pot calling the kettle black.

[Habitual Perfectionist]

LOL

On topic...what Jaan said here is correct. Americans...poor them...as I said earlier too....had a pitiful choice to make. An idiot versus a glib-talking good for nothing. I'm sure if Kerry had some strong republican competition....he would have hardly made any splashes. Kerry had it lucky. He achieved whatever he did solely because his competition was an utter nincompoop.



P.S. : And vice versa.

-- People all over the world have pitiful choices to make. Look at what Blair turned out to be in UK. And did we have any choice to speak of here in India?

Blair was not as pitiful before getting elected as he is today. What I meant in my post there was that during the campaign itself, it was very clear that the people running for election are not the best that could have been there. As for India, no point comparing because the US follows a presidential system while we follow a parliamentary one. We don't vote people to power...we vote parties to power. So comparing the choices we have to the choices they have is like comparing apples with oranges.





P.S. : If you really want to push the India thing forward, Doc Manmohan Singh will better any US president for atleast the last 6-7 terms in terms of respect, conviction, moral strength, acceptance and above all, experience. And believe me, however much I might be Anti-Vajpayee, even he's anyday better than the choices americans had.

[Reality,,its here.Accept it.]

And, don't speak about Bush Sr. None of us was alive when he was president so your argument is not justified.

-> Wow .. You werent alive in 1988-1991 ??? That makes u a very well informed, earning 12 yr old in the USA, which in reality doesnt exsist..

Anyway, all I care about is the end of the war. If he can do that (which is like asking pigs to fly backwards) then I will have no problem with him being president.

Whether you agree or disagree with the war, you CANNOT pull out of a war and leave the country alone! That is simply not done! You need to leave when the country can fend for itself against all the insurgencies and etc. To o many groups will spring for the vacant power and destroy the country all over again.

These are things needed immediately-------SO GET TO WORK COUNTRY BOY!!

He is. And he cannot do any work if there are so many that disagree with him. Give him some time, likely he will wrap up the war the first two years of his second term and the next two, he will focus on the other objectives.

Jaan[/quote]



- Agreed that you can't pull out of a war. But who started the war in the first place. And US did pullout of wars previously - remember Vietnam. And your reason for continued American presence in Iraq is as imaginative as "Bush original speak". America went into Irag saying its a danger to the world and now it stays there saying Iraq will be a greater danger if US pulls out. This beats Kerry flip-flop hundred times over.
- And this war started two years back with Afganisthan and you say 2 more years ,, that means a total of 4 yrs of war out of the 8 yrs Dubya spends in office. This guy really missed out on war games in his childhood.

[Reality,,its here.Accept it.]

LOL

On topic...what Jaan said here is correct. Americans...poor them...as I said earlier too....had a pitiful choice to make. An idiot versus a glib-talking good for nothing. I'm sure if Kerry had some strong republican competition....he would have hardly made any splashes. Kerry had it lucky. He achieved whatever he did solely because his competition was an utter nincompoop.



P.S. : And vice versa.

-- People all over the world have pitiful choices to make. Look at what Blair turned out to be in UK. And did we have any choice to speak of here in India?

Blair was not as pitiful before getting elected as he is today. What I meant in my post there was that during the campaign itself, it was very clear that the people running for election are not the best that could have been there. As for India, no point comparing because the US follows a presidential system while we follow a parliamentary one. We don't vote people to power...we vote parties to power. So comparing the choices we have to the choices they have is like comparing apples with oranges.


P.S. : If you really want to push the India thing forward, Doc Manmohan Singh will better any US president for atleast the last 6-7 terms in terms of respect, conviction, moral strength, acceptance and above all, experience. And believe me, however much I might be Anti-Vajpayee, even he's anyday better than the choices americans had.

-And i was talking about choices, not the difference in governing systems. Whatever the system the choices b4 the voters are pitiful.

-I agree Dr.Manmohan singh has more conviction and moral strength. but what good are those when u can't act on them. Remember the expert committee fiasco???

[Habitual Perfectionist]

In the age of coalition politics, you cannot expect any government to deliver on all the points they wanted to. I personally feel, and there is not a single fact to prove otherwise, that Dr.MMS is beyond reproach as far as character is concerned. And he has acted upon his moral strength and conviction more than once. Standing up to the commies is no easy task.

[igiveadamn]

In the age of coalition politics, you cannot expect any government to deliver on all the points they wanted to. I personally feel, and there is not a single fact to prove otherwise, that Dr.MMS is beyond reproach as far as character is concerned. And he has acted upon his moral strength and conviction more than once. Standing up to the commies is no easy task.

Er, the point always is what a premier has done to the people and country. Who cares about his morality and character when the country does not run on them? I would anyday prefer a characterless and immoral prime minister who's doing good to the country over some spotless person who 'wants' to do good for the country but spends his entire term standing upto the _ from his own party.