Good kottchen (question)

by **azazel** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:42 pm

*in Chris Tucker's rabid tone* i doooooont understaaaaand the worrrrrrrds comin' outta ur keyboard

by **Scorpion's Sting** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 9:44 pm

azazel wrote:*in Chris Tucker's rabid tone* i doooooont understaaaaand the worrrrrrrds comin' outta ur keyboard

^ditto

by **azazel** » Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:09 pm

Q)ever stop to think n forget to start again?

by **Habitual Perfectionist** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 2:27 am

malakpetmasala wrote:
Habitual Perfectionist wrote:
malakpetmasala wrote:
Kenny wrote:man... totally forgot Sanskrit existed.

but its dead!

No it isn't.

dead language as in for practical use, except for this one village in karnataka, dont really remember the name, its not spoken anywhere as in for mass communication.
thats what i meant as in a dead language!

You mean to say its not spoken much colloquially. But all hindu religious ceremonies are carried on in Sanskrit shlokas. There are a few universities offering higher education in sanskrit. Its a part of school syllabi at the primary & secondary level in many states in India.

Do you still feel its a dead language?

by **malakpetmasala** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:36 am

Habitual Perfectionist wrote:
malakpetmasala wrote:
Habitual Perfectionist wrote:
malakpetmasala wrote:
Kenny wrote:man... totally forgot Sanskrit existed.

but its dead!

No it isn't.

dead language as in for practical use, except for this one village in karnataka, dont really remember the name, its not spoken anywhere as in for mass communication.
thats what i meant as in a dead language!

You mean to say its not spoken much colloquially. But all hindu religious ceremonies are carried on in Sanskrit shlokas. There are a few universities offering higher education in sanskrit. Its a part of school syllabi at the primary & secondary level in many states in India.

Do you still feel its a dead language?

its not about me feeling, the way i feel would nt do any wonders to the language. its just called a dead language! as in fulfils the definition of a dead language!

by **akhilis2cool** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:40 am

even though sanskrit is not spoken in its purest form these days, it still exists in our day to day life, because, almost all of the languages are derived from it.

by **azazel** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:45 pm

one of my good pals sez, Sanskrit as a language owes a lot to Tamil for its development. true?

by **akhilis2cool** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:47 pm

azazel wrote:one of my good pals sez, Sanskrit as a language owes a lot to Tamil for its development. true?

some ppl. believe tamil is older than sanskrit..thats why they say so.

by **CtrlAltDel** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:06 pm

akhilis2cool wrote:
azazel wrote:one of my good pals sez, Sanskrit as a language owes a lot to Tamil for its development. true?
some ppl. believe tamil is older than sanskrit..thats why they say so.

tamil is older since pre-aryan tamil literature exists. its suppossed to originate from the language of the original inhabitants who were pushed southwards by the aryans...but i dunno abt how much sanskrit owes to tamil coz both dont have similar words or structures. they seem to be independent entities.

PS: by 'tamil' here i am talking of the 'pure' literary tamil, which is different from tamil that is spoken these days. the modern spoken version has many sanskrit influenced words that was the result of brahminic influence in that region.

PS2: "tamiL itself is an anglicised pronunciation. the correct pronunciation cannot be represented in any known indian language other than malayalam and of corz, tamil. in english, that pronunciation is usually written as "zh" (as in "Tamizh"), but its not pronounced with the sound of "Z"...its confusing i know

...but this sound cannot be written and is not easy for non-tamils (or mallus) to pronounce.

by **asli_badmash** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:56 pm

CtrlAltDel wrote:tamil is older since pre-aryan tamil literature exists. its suppossed to originate from the language of the original inhabitants who were pushed southwards by the aryans...

Are you one of the LTTE. This is the prime reason why LTTE is fighting for a free Tamil country from Sri-Lanka (and then it would be India). That is why the Tamil people dislike people from the north, cause it is ingrained in thier minds that the North Indians are invaders and hence if you go to Madras they treat you bad.

To counter that... one of the scholars in India has said/proven that the Aryan invasion didnt happen at all. I remeber reading an article to this effect. Lots of smoke and screen. Its like saying the Muslims didnt come to India as invaders. They did and so did the Aryans. But both the races setteled and are now a part of India.

CtrlAltDel wrote:but i dunno abt how much sanskrit owes to tamil coz both dont have similar words or structures. they seem to be independent entities.

Tamil is way different from Sanskrit. I studied sanskrit for 3 grades. And I know tamil people who studied Sanskrit... they say the two languages have nothing in common.

Also, I heard...

Hindi = More Sanskrit + Less Persian

Urdu = More Persian + Less Sanskrit

So on a scale...

Persian(100%)<---->Urdu<----->Hindi<----->Sanskrit(100%)

you make sense out of it!

by **CtrlAltDel** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:33 pm

asli_badmash wrote: Are you one of the LTTE. This is the prime reason why LTTE is fighting for a free Tamil country from Sri-Lanka (and then it would be India)

.LTTE have no concern abt aryans or hindi...they have a grouse against sinhalas of srilanka...and some tamil dravidian parties see common cause with the sri lankan tamils.

asli_badmash wrote:That is why the Tamil people dislike people from the north, cause it is ingrained in thier minds that the North Indians are invaders and hence if you go to Madras they treat you bad.

no....this feeling of hating northies started in the 50s-60s coz after independance Delhi portrayed hindi as the sole national language and tried to force ppl here to learn Hindi. the local dravidians didnt like that. added to that was the stereotypical portrayal of tamilians in hindi cinema. the general feeling was that the north indians were not respecting the locals, their culture n language. both added as a potent mixture to fire up passions, instigated by dravidian parties. there was this violent movement where anything visible in hindi was burnt or tarred incl. commercial sign boards, railway signs etc. their main arguement to Delhi was "if we HAVE to learn hindi, why dont u learn tamil.". this was one of the factors why the nation's founding fathers decided to give English a prominent place in india...which has now paid off for us...

now its all ok....lots of tamils in tamil nadu do know hindi very well but wont speak coz of 1)lack of fluency n confidence, or 2)misguided regional pride. but u can find lotsa prominent hindi signs in cities/railway stns. amithab and (sad but true) SRK have major fan following there.

asli_badmash wrote:... one of the scholars in India has said/proven that the Aryan invasion didnt happen at all. I remeber reading an article to this effect.

nothing has been proven...its british historian's word v/s the swadeshi ones

asli_badmash wrote:But both the races setteled and are now a part of India.

the sooner all realise that its better

by **Lucifer** » Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:01 pm

My two cents in relation with CAD's post.

I think that this feeling of disgrunt against the North Indians among the Tamils was largely inculcated by the politicians of the place who wanted nothing but votes. This theory of 'why don't you learn Tamil because you want us to learn Hindi' does not hold water because Hindi happens to be the most widely spoken language in the country and there has to be some common thread binding all Indians.

Take any country. The Russians speak Russian, the Germans speak German, the French speak French. Possibly that is why they do not have these silly riots that we in India see so often. I am not saying that we are supposed to shun all other languages. No, that is a very regressive thought process. What I am saying is that the importance of Hindi cannot and should not be undermined.

English has the potential to provide that common thread. But, the patriot in me would rather have an Indian language do that - even Tamil, provided it is feasible to actually teach more than 90% of the country that language.

CAD, that thing you mentioned about the North Indians planning a ban on English after Independence is something I read in some newspaper column a few weeks ago. I do not think that was the intention because most of these leaders' works are in the English language. Perhaps, you are not going to find a more staunch supporter of English than Nehru or the Mahatma themselves.

English stayed in India because we Indians did not see the need to get rid of it for the 'sake' of National pride. Do you know why the Americans drive on the right? Because after their Independence, they wanted to give their people the impression that they are completely free from imperialist rule. So, they reversed most their policies. Could there be a more stupid thing to do? That is why they still do most things the reverse way even today.

On a lighter note, the importance of Hindi takes another leap altogether when you consider the choicest of abuses the language has to offer. I am yet to come across another language that provides me with words that include the whole family in the abuse list!

by **Habitual Perfectionist** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:21 am

Lucifer wrote:My two cents in relation with CAD's post.

Take any country. The Russians speak Russian, the Germans speak German, the French speak French. Possibly that is why they do not have these silly riots that we in India see so often. I am not saying that we are supposed to shun all other languages. No, that is a very regressive thought process. What I am saying is that the importance of Hindi cannot and should not be undermined.

The size and varied culture of India kind of reverses this point of view. Hindi is spoken by a majority only in the northern cow belt of India. There too, it assumes various dialects from Haryanvi in Haryana; Marwari in Rajasthan; Khadi boli, Avadhi, Mewati etc. in UP & Bhojpuri & Maithili in Bihar. We somehow cannot equate it with Russian in Russia, German in Germany & French in France.

As for the importance being provided to Hindi, it is surely getting its due place in our culture. We have many PSU's actively championing the Hindi cause. The communication networks have given a place of pride to Hindi. The Hindi film industry is the largest in the country and hindi movies are screened all over the country.

Plus....blah...blah...blah....la lot of other things.

I don't think any hindi supporter should feel bad at the treatment the language is getting.

by **CtrlAltDel** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:17 pm

Lucifer wrote:I think that this feeling of disgrunt against the North Indians among the Tamils was largely inculcated by the politicians of the place who wanted nothing but votes.

yes...this was largely incited by politicians.

Lucifer wrote:This theory of 'why don't you learn Tamil because you want us to learn Hindi' does not hold water because Hindi happens to be the most widely spoken language in the country and there has to be some common thread binding all Indians.
Take any country. The Russians speak Russian, the Germans speak German, the French speak French. Possibly that is why they do not have these silly riots that we in India see so often. I am not saying that we are supposed to shun all other languages. No, that is a very regressive thought process. What I am saying is that the importance of Hindi cannot and should not be undermined.

HP has responded, so i wont repeat him.

Lucifer wrote:CAD, that thing you mentioned about the North Indians planning a ban on English after Independence is something I read in some newspaper column a few weeks ago.

i didnt say that....there was a plan to declare Hindi the national and official language of India. now English is also the official language, tho not the national language.

the dravidian politicians were able to exploit the language issue mainly coz most of the southies, esp tamils, feel that they are not given respect by the northies. this feeling is not imagined.

when i was working in delhi i could sense the undercurrent of contempt from the locals from their sarcastic references to my origin, food habits, calling me a 'madrassi' etc. initially they assumed i was not good in hindi and used to make nasty comments. but since i am hyderabadi, i am fluent in hindi, esp cuss words n pun and cud pay them back in their own coin. imagine the frustrations of a person from deep south who doesnt know hindi?

also look at hindi movies....tamilians are almost always shown as fools speaking outrageous n exaggerated accents.

the dravidian politicians were successful in tapping this frustration and turning it into a political "Hate Hindi" campaign in the 50s-60s. this resulted in "Anything but Hindi"....that led to giving "English" a prominent position.

another problem is the northies' assumption that most ppl in india know hindi. even in AP, outside Telangana and big towns no one speaks it. same in rural Karnataka, Kerala and Orissa too (dunno abt other states). but thankfully, in these states no one thought of starting an anti-hindi campaign.

by **Lucifer** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 6:25 pm

Agreed, CAD, that not many people in the interiors of Southern states would know Hindi. But, even fewer would know English. Since you have to learn a language to communicate with the people outside the state why not let that language be an Indian one? And, that is my sole bone with the people of Tamil Nadu - they just hate Hindi. That, to me, is regressive. Every language is great in itself. Every language deserves respect.

I have nothing against English (my occasional rhetoric against it notwithstanding). But, English is, and will remain, a foreign language. And the patriot in me just refuses to give it the same status as any other Indian language.

About the North Indians chiding the South Indians, that is largely true. But, then most people chide the Biharis too. There are umpteen jokes on Sardarjis. They never take anything to heart. And, that shows the greatness of the race. They are able to take all that in their stride, and also give something in return.

And, as regards how this North-South divide came up, I leave that for another day.

by **CtrlAltDel** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:17 pm

Lucifer wrote:Since you have to learn a language to communicate with the people outside the state why not let that language be an Indian one?

sure...but why Hindi only?

Lucifer wrote:that is my sole bone with the people of Tamil Nadu - they just hate Hindi.

if other languages are to be hated, why only Hindi? why dont they hate telugu or kannada or Bengali or whatever? they just didnt like the "if u r Indian, u have to know Hindi" attitude that north indian politicians had at that time (many still do). If Narasimha Rao had even thought aloud that Delhi students have to learn Telugu as a second language, he wudn't have lasted a day more.

FYI, Dakshin Bharat Hindi Prachar Sabha (run by tamilians) has been very active in interior tamil nadu even before independence, upto now. a number of people esp housewives used to learn Hindi in villages, and do so even today. show me a single district in north india where people express interest on their own to learn a south indian language. if a few rural south indians learn hindi its out of their own interest and not coz its a govt policy. idea of forcing people by law to learn Hindi had made them stubborn and hardened their attitude.

why should only south indian schools learn three languages : state language, Hindi and English. why dont schools in north india teach a south indian language.

If a letter addressed in Hindi arrives in a tamil nadu village, there will be atleast 1 person who wud be able to read it. what wud be the fate of a letter addressed in tamil or telugu in a UP or Bihar town???

agreed that such ppl with hindi knowledge are very few in tamil nadu, outside the big towns, but at least they are there.

looking at politicians burning hindi sign boards and assuming that the local people hate hindi is wrong. its like seeing the gujrat riots and saying that hindus are all muslim killers.

Lucifer wrote:But, English is, and will remain, a foreign language.

its unfair to call it a foreign language anymore. It has served india faithfully and has been largely responsible for most of the progress we have made till date.

Lucifer wrote:then most people chide the Biharis too. There are umpteen jokes on Sardarjis. They never take anything to heart.

making jokes is one thing, passing contemptous & patronising comments on the face is another.

by **Lucifer** » Fri Sep 24, 2004 11:52 pm

Nope, I have no intent of making this thread a slug fest between us. So, just peace out.

On another note, do you think this North-South divide will ever end? I mean, it is kind of stupid that we let something as silly as the Vindhyas divide us, don't you think?

That reminds me of this story about the Vindhyas. Legend has it that the Vindhyas, one fine day, felt very envious of all the attention that the Himalayas were getting due to their height. So, it decided to grow. And, Indra being Indra, thought that Vindhyas would ulitmately reach Swarg and usurp him from his seat of power. So, he called on Rishi Agastya for help.

Agastya was quite a short man. He approached the Vindhyas and told them that he would like to cross the mountains. But, it was nearly impossible for him to do so at their present height. He was travelling from the South to the North, BTW.

The rishi was highly revered. So, the Vindhyas decided to lower themselves to let him pass. But, he raised the important question of what would happen when he decided to return. The Vindhyas agreed to remain at their height till the sage decided to return. Agastya never did. He remained north of the Vindhyas forever, and thus the Vindhyas remained short mountains.

by **Habitual Perfectionist** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 4:11 am

Back on topic....

What came first? The chicken or the egg?

by **CtrlAltDel** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:07 am

Lucifer wrote:Nope, I have no intent of making this thread a slug fest between us. So, just peace out.

:oops: this was not meant to be slug-fest

.....i was just responding to the "People of TamilNadu hate hindi" myth, started by AB...

by **akhilis2cool** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:13 am

Chicken

by **CtrlAltDel** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:18 am

Habitual Perfectionist wrote:What came first? The chicken or the egg?

The Egg...thats why the Chicken was really pissed off n frustrated....

by **asli_badmash** » Sat Sep 25, 2004 11:42 am

CtrlAltDel wrote:
Lucifer wrote:Nope, I have no intent of making this thread a slug fest between us. So, just peace out.
:oops: this was not meant to be slug-fest .....i was just responding to the "People of TamilNadu hate hindi" myth, started by AB...

Myth..

Its not a myth its true. Are you telling me that people in Madras respond to outsiders like how they respond to local tamils.

I have some points but I guess now they are moot now, because in one way or the other they have been talked about by Lucifer, CAD, HP. But the fact remains that Southies dont like Hindi and it goes with our nature as Humans we dont like anything that is imposed on us.

BTW; interesting debate..

by **CtrlAltDel** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:15 am

asli_badmash wrote:Its not a myth its true. Are you telling me that people in Madras respond to outsiders like how they respond to local tamils.

thats nothing to do with Hindi. Outsiders of any language will find that everyone speaks only Tamil and the educated lot speak English too. any queries in Hindi or any other languages are met with silence or a Tamil reply coz 1)the person doesnt know Hindi or 2) even if they understand, they are not able to speak Hindi or 3) even if they reply in hindi, the outsider might think its tamil

no one hates Hindi anymore for sake of hating, even the dravidian politicians. they are just against declaring Hindi the supreme language in India

by **Lucifer** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:56 am

CAD, is Jayalalitha your concubine? Or are you her keep? :lol:

The way you defend Tamilians is simply mind-boggling!

by **Lucifer** » Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:56 am

CAD, is Jayalalitha your concubine? Or are you her keep? :lol:

The way you defend Tamilians is simply mind-boggling!

PS: That statement was meant in good-humour. I am sure CAD would not take offence, but others might. So, just peace out!

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