India and Pakistan Zindabad!

by **ChicagoDesi** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 6:33 pm

I\'m 23 male from Chicago, came from Hyderabad, since I was 2 years old, grew up here and went to college here and I\'ve always had a lot of Indian and Pakistani friends, and you know what, there\'s virtually no difference between us.We share a common culture,food,langauge is almost the same, clothes..so what\'s the big deal??If the Kashmir issue can be resolved,then there\'s no reason that India and Pakistan can\'t be like how the U.S. and Canada are.India and Pakistan combined can be a HUGE economic force in Asia, and if they open up their borders to trade, both countries can equally benefit without being dependent on the U.S. or other countries.We share a common culture and history and it\'s about time we use our culture and intelligence into soemthing productive instead of fighting each other while the rest of the world moves forward. Hindustan and Pakistan Zindabad!!!!

by **archana** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:35 am

cut out that india-pakistan bhai-bhai crap!!! I\'ve had enough of it. india extends a good friendly hand each time, and what do we get in return?? more and more killings and killings in kashmir and elsewhere in india.
 

 
do you know that on the day the pakistani baby Noor was operated in bangalore, back in pakistan, ppl were burning the indian flag and getting ready to kill kashmiris?? (later they actually killed a few kashmiri indians) see we indians try our best to be friends and what do we get in return?? hatred and murder.. no point in being friends.

by **Arch** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:18 am

well ! Chicago Desi, I too have several Pakistani friends and I am fond of them too yet I am a Hindu. All the above facts should not make me forget that Pakistani government had been and is still stabbing the Indians in the back giving sweet smiles and extending a dikhav friendly hand twds us. Arre yarr, you are teaching something totally diff. from what you should be teaching. what we Indians need is more of guts to go slap the pakis and say get lost instead of giving another cheek when slapped on one cheek. Ekk khheench kar dene se annaon ke dimakhan tikhane mein aajate.

by **ABCD** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:42 am

An Eye for An Eye makes this world blind. I am a hindu grew up in US. I met so many non immigrant pakistanies, They are no different than Indians in every aspect. It’s the
 Politicians of Pakistan made this Kasmir issue. I read so many history books on Kasmir and Bangladesh division . The real truth only known to the people, who were dead.
 
 We can not compare those terrorists with common folks in those countries. There are people who are like you and me. War does not fetch us any thing except killing some innocent people on both sides. Just leave the hatred feeling but not Kashmir. Spread
 The friendship but be firm on what we believe.
 
 Peace out guys.
 
 ABCD

by **ChicagoDesi** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:17 am

It\'s both of the governments who are corrupt and incite the people...hindus and muslims used to live together peacefully until the British came and tore us apart, and they purposely left the issue of Kashmir undecided because they knew that both pakistan\'s and india\'s governments would never come to an agreement, and that both countries would fight bitterly..and we played right into their hands..and we still are to this day..I blame both of the governments for causing riots and incitements in BOTH India and Pakistan..there\'s corrupt leaders in India AND Pakistan. i am Indian, and peace between India and Pakistan would HELP each other..not hurt us!!! I know there have been thousands of people killed, innocent people and both India and Pakistan governments are to be blamed..because innocent people are killed on both sides..just cuz i grew up in the US doesn\'t mean i don\'t know..my parents grew up in India from the 1940\'s til the 1980\'s, and they\'ve seen what it does to people. You guys are playing right into the governments hands by doing and thinking exactly like they want you to..because of this thinking on BOTH sides..more people will have to die.

by **ChicagoDesi** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:10 am

Let me make another thing clear...some of the Paki muslims that are here in the U.S. are SO SO SO much worse than the Indian muslims..i\'ve been to both the Indian and Paki Independance Day parades here in Chicago, and most of the Paki guys act like nothing than common thugs..and the Indian one is so much more shareef..which makes me proud that i am an INDIAN muslim...Im not saying all Pakistani\'s are bad and all Indians are good..but that I am proud to be Indian but that does not mean i have to automatically hate pakistanis just because I am Indian..all I am trying to say is that some sort of peace between India and Pakistan would greatly benefit BOTH countries, both socially and economically...I mean look at the US and Great Britain..the US was a colony of England and they fought the British for independance..and look at these two countries today..they\'re tow of the most powerful nations in the world..and look at where we are...i\'m not saying we\'re backwards..but we certainly can be far more ahead than we are now.

by **I_am_who_Iam** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:19 am

I emphathize with Chicago\'ds view here. I lived in India for about 15 years before moving to US and lived there ever since. I hated Pakistan and Pakistanis with a passion. I was simply steryotyping them as complete losers. After 7 years and meeting a number of great Pakistanis, I ve changed. There are people before Pakistanis, and people can be good. This doesnot mean I empathize with the terrorists, but lets be rational here and not look the whole population as a freek society. And for the record if you think race matters, I am Hindu too and yes I have some decent Pakistani friends.
 PS: MMorpheous, you need to chill out bro, seen your opinion on a couple os boards here, you need to get outside the shell here.

by **CtrlAltDel** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:38 am

U know what...i agree with ChicagoDesi on this point on many points. I am a hindu, resident of hyderabad. i have quite a few good pakistani friends on internet.
 i dont agree that we have to hate any citizen of pakistan just coz he or she is a pakistani.
 as its been said, the terrorism has been started by the paki politicians just coz they cant win a straight battle against us. they would also love to incite indian muslims and encourage them to join hands with them.
 and by reacting to terrorism by labeling all indian muslims as paki admirers, we only play ISI\'s games and make it easy for them.
 we must not forget that majority of pakistani citizens are not bearded or burkha wearing fanatics. they are like any indian in matter daily life. just as in india, u get modern westernised pakistanis in their cities and traditional or conservative ones in their towns and villages. they are also concerned with their probelms, jobs and the state of their economy...just like us.
 i have understood all this by talking to pakistani friends and browsing thru their newspapers on internet etc (for example u may check out http://www.dawn.com).
 the only point on which indians and pakistani citizens dont agree is the issue of kashmir. solve that and we can live in peace.
 only politicians in both countries gain by encouraging hatred among citizens and sadly even educated citizens in both countries dont see this.

by **archana** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:01 pm

so whats your point? drive a bus into pakistan and try to befriend them. lets see if you come back in one piece...

by **archana** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:14 pm

pakistan is a common enemy not only for the US but also for India, so I look at it as a two-way enemy.
 

 
an enemy is an enemy no matter what angle you look at it as. be on guard always. pak has attacked india when you least expect it. i heard about the isi thing striking very often in bombay and hyderabad.

by **CtrlAltDel** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:45 pm

my point is that theres no reason for indians to blindly hate ordinary pakististani citizens and vice versa. we may have our differences and we defend our positions strongly, but it should not mean that we have to spew venom at the mere mention of the word \"pakistani\".
 
 this is more like behaviour of illiterates and rustics who can be easily brainwashed. hating the other is not the benchmark to prove ones patriotism.
 
 hate their government, identify and fight their agents woking here, but dont get apopletic if someone talks of friendship between the citizens of the two countries.
 
 and another thing...i am sure that if i take a bus across the border to meet some of my friends, i would not only come back in one piece, but with lots of gifts and love! btw, i had a standing invitation to attend the wedding of one of my net friends in hyderabad (sindh, pak.) last month.
 
 i really want to see the day when its possible to move freely to each other\'s country, but the prospect does not look bright at least for now...thanx to the kashmir problem.

by **archana** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:51 pm

they were the people who wanted a separate nation and they got it. now they want kashmir and they\'ve killed more than 30,000 indians for that land.. sooner or later they\'ll want the whole of india and talibanize it.
 

 
yes your friend invited you. go there and you\'ll know what things will be like. one of my friends went to pakistan to meet her net friend and that bastard tried to molest her.. talk about meeting net friends that too in pakistan, huh?

by **CtrlAltDel** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 6:26 pm

i dont mind if a beautiful pakistani girl tries to molest me...!!! :-D

jokes apart...yr friend had a bad exp...doesnt mean all off them r that way....cummon yaar....u cant talk that way....
 its same as saying all hindus are murderous killers coz of wat hapnd at gujrat.
 
 i am sure the pakistani friends i have had nothing to do with troubles in kashmir, nor are they ISI agents. they are normal students and working professionals who have the same concerns and worries as i do. why should i hate them?
 
 now that india and pakistan have decided to resume flights, my newly married pakistani friend has told me that she is interested in visiting india, and hyderabad, with her husband (they got some relatives in bhopal).
 
 if they make it here, do i have to fight them and ask them to leave India or do i welcome them as friends and make them feel comfortable?
 
 i expect any normal pakistani to show the same civility to indian visitors. the famed \"Hospitality\" is present there too...remember they were all Indians once.

by **JustaLittleUnwell** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 6:43 pm

The board got ruthlessly moderated? I was beginning to have some fun...... anyways

- India needs gas from Iran to power its economy / society and wants it cheap, which means it has to flow by the shortest route (Pakistan)
 
 - Indian flight carriers need to be able to fly to Europe and the US by the shortest possible route to minimize their losses (over Pakistan)
 
 - India needs to protect its market interests for its premium Basmati rice from the onslaught of EU regulations. It has to fight by teaming up with a country which faces similar risks (Pakistan)
 
 - Indian tea industry is looking to expand market, and the world\'s 3rd largest importer of tea is right next door, but largely inaccessible (Pakistan)
 
 - Indirect trade between the two nations is a whopping number (dont remember the figure though). If direct trade had existed, it could\'ve make the products more competitive, as well as affordable to the buyers, resulting in an exponential growth.
 
 These are some mutual benefits, if we both nations could shun our dumb-ass attitudes.
 
 India and Pakistan Zindabad indeed!!!

by **CtrlAltDel** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 6:57 pm

i agree....v have to guard against ISI activities and be careful of any hand of friendship their government extends.
 but my point is: why do i hate a common citizen of pakistan? why should i hate them so much that i should refuse to even chat with them? will it serve any purpose?
 
 u live in US of A. u must have encountered pakistanis everywhere. do u hate them on sight if u know they are pakistanis? do u hate a pakistani co-worker and refuse to co-operate with him/her in the office? do you refuse to talk or help a neighbor just coz he/she is from pakistani.
 
 this is exactly what i am talking about.

by **ChicagoDesi** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:27 pm

I\'m glad to see there are people out there who have common sense and understand where I\'m comming from.The way I see it is there are common, hardworking people in both countries who are struggling to live day by day and the last thing on their minds is hating each other.If improving relationships between the two countries will help everyone, especially economically and socially, why wouldn\'t you want that?? After all, Pakistan shares a common heritage and culture and there\'s no need for us or them to be hating each other because we\'re all human and suffering causes pain to both of us, not just indians or pakistanis.If we tried to understand each other, see how each other lives, you\'ll find that there\'s not that much difference.Peace between India and Pakistan Zindabad indeed!

by **ChicagoDesi** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:47 pm

Also, I think everyone knows that Paki people are just as big fans of Bollywood films as we are (and especially music), than what\'s to stop us from agreeing a lot more things? Just by seeing the popularity of bollywood films in pakistan, you can see that most of the people don\'t hate Indians, it\'s what they\'ve been taught by the politicians..and vice versa here in India..take away the politicians of both governments and you\'ll see just how everything changes..so yeah i encourage everyone to take a look at paki newspapers or find a paki person to talk to on IM and you\'ll see they\'re not much diferent from us.

by **JustaLittleUnwell** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 8:08 pm

ChicagoDesi, I\'ll have to add to what you said. The people of the sub-continent (Sri Lankans and Bangladeshis included)are amongst the most hard-working people in the planet. Despite this, the region happens to be one of the poorest in the world - with the sole exception of Africa. We need to thank our politicians and the religious fundementalists for this sorry state of affairs.

by **ChicagoDesi** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 10:13 pm

I totally agree with you JustALittleUnwell, and if we could channel all of our resources into positives, just think how much we could achieve..we wouldn\'t need to be dependant on America or anyone else for help..India and Pakistan could together be 2 of the most powerful nations in Asia, economically and socially...We should be focusing our attention and money to the poor and uneducated people in the towns and villages across India and Pakistan..I went to India last December, for the first time since We came to the US in 1982, and I went on a train trip from Hyderabad to New Delhi to AjmerSharif to Jaipur then Agra and back to Hyderabad, and I was really saddened by the amount of poverty that still exists.What good is all that military might and power if you can\'t even feed and clothe your own people.I\'m sure the same situation exists in Pakistan, if not worse.If we can get the public to start accepting each other not as enemies, but as people striving for a common cause: peace and prosperity, then no nation on Earth can stop us, not even America.

by **Mayavi Morpheus** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 2:04 am

Too many candle holders here, who see things in black and white only. Well there are other hues too and you need to know the dynamics of the problem before saying \'solve kashmir, kill politicians\' everything will be Ok\'. Well, its not that simple. First of all how the hell will you solve kashmir problem? What is the problem in the first case? Do you thoroughly understand the stand that the two countries ahve taken? Do you know what happened between 1947 and 1989 before kashmir started burning? Do you know hwat happened in 1965, \'71 and \'99? Is it just politicians that are craving for kashmir and keep adding oil to the flames? What role does paksitani army (which is very large for a country of its size) plays in Kashmir? And what role does an average paksitani plays? And finally the most imoportant question for Indians is that do we hate paksitan, the concept of two nation theory or paksitanis as a whole. I dont claim to know everything that happened between India and paksitan since 1947, but I will try to show a differnt dimension something which is overlooked by you folks.
 
 First a brief history of pakistan:
 1. Paksitan was brain child of Muslim League, guess its Iqbal, but Jinnah was their front man, their leader. He wanted a seperate nation for Indian muslims of british raj, \'cos the Muslims feared that a free India will marginalise muslims. So jinnah wanted some reservations for Muslims in Free India including political reservations, which was not acceptable to the secualr congress leaders like Sardar Vallabh Bhai patel and Maulana abul Kalam Azad. Gandhi ji was for reservations and infact he wanted muslim leaders at helm so that he can prevent partition. (RSS is out of picture here, congress didnt have any RSS elements at that time). Partition took palce and pakistan was formed. But Jinnah didnt want a Islaamic Republic of Paksitan, his idealogy wanted a muslim dominated \'secular\' paksitan (so people say, I am not sure).
 
 2. Forget all the carnage during paksitan, both nations equally suffered, many Hindus/Sikhs lost their lives in West punjab (now paksitan) which attracted retaliation from Hindus/sikhs in East punjab and many muslims lost their lives. Two nations were born. Kashmir and Hyderabad were center of problem. Hyderabad was settled with Police Action, Countless Hindus were killed by Razakars (after Razakars were banend by Nizam). Part of Kashmir was occupied by Pakistani tribals backed by Paksitan Regulars (army), and remaining part acceded to India. Countelss kashmiri women were raped by by the tribals and their villages looted.
 [I remember reading a report by a western journalist who was travelling in an IAF plane bombing the the paksitani army/tribals and was shot down when straffing. They were captured (both Pilot and journalist) looted and put in a tent where there were around 50 kashmiri women, with minimal clothes, repeatedly being raped by Tribals and paksitani army.]
 
 3. Before 1965, paksitan was a progressive state, had a considerable minority Hindu/sikh population. Had a higher growth rate compared to India, and was Americas darling against the fight with commies.
 
 4. Then the military general overthrew the Civilian government, Ayub Khan became president, declared war against India. The pakistani downfall started. Under the military rule paksitan became a truly Islaamic state, minorities were killed (Hindu population fell from around 10% to 2% I guess, not sure, will check it). Punjabi muslims started dominating paksitani politics, countless madarassas were set-up, scientific education was relegated to the back seat, and religious education dominated. Koranic education, while good for personal development and religious knowledge, is no substitute for scientific education. No education means no development. The gap between rich and poor increased in paksitan while the middle class is totally eliminated. The rich became very rich and incidentally all are either politicians or Army Generals. Paksitani Army forces (not Airforce, not Navy) became dominant in the country, the officers were kings, they get land in prime area, they get important positions in civil administration (because its military rule) and they define the foreign policy. But to do all this they need support, and the best way to do so is to keep people occupied other than teaching hated for the neighbours, and if tis religious hatred its even good.
 Paksitani school texts spew venom against India. To them Indians are Hindus, muslims are being oppressed, raped and killed.
 to be continued....

by **Mayavi Morpheus** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 2:22 am

continued....
 
 in the paksitani text books history is distorted. According to them, they won the \'65 war. India was spanked, lost territory. The great paksitani army, keeper of the freedom Islamic state and Honor and Dignity of the pakistanis kicked Indias ass, or so their text books say (Read Dawn/Jung archives for further story).
 Then in 1971 trouble started in East paksitan, now bangladesh. The paksitanis started to believe that they are racillay superior to the Bengalis. Bengal had considerable Hindu population, around 15 - 20%. The paksitani army started killing Bengalis, nearly 3 million were killed. Official figures say 1 million. India helped Bangladesh. They were freed. Bangladesh formed and unfortunately they too followed the Islamic way and declared themselves Islamic republic with a fifth of population being Hindu. (can you imagine India as a Hindu state with 15% Muslim population?). Now the Hindu population in bangladesh in less than 10% due to genocide, anyway, nto our problem. Indian hindus donot hold a spiritual connection with bangladeshi hindus, so we don nothing about it.
 In the speech before 1971 war, the paksitani president (Ayub Khan) declared that one Pakistani = 10 Indians! The paksitani still believe that.
 The formation of Bangladesh was a major embarrasment for Pakistan and its army. They are still trying to seek revenge. They know that they cant win a conventional war with India. They need other means to do that, what best way to achieve that other than inciting Communal riots in Idnia. Their foreign policy changed, its India centric, their only goal is to seek revenge and break India.
 Their policy is to bleed India by thousand cuts.
 This was started in Punjab. The punjabis visiting the paksitani second Holiest shrine of sikhs which is on paksitani side were incited against India. Khalistan was funded by paksitan. India managed to crush Khalistan effectively in 1989.
 Then started Kashmir. Again the same story, all muslims belong to paksitan and all Muslim areas should go to paksitan BS.
 To date 36,000 people were killed. 400,000 Kashmiri pundits (Hindus) were displaced. People who were rich and used to lvie in big bungalows are now living in single room Refugee camps in Delhi. Imagine 6 members ofa family eating and sleeping in a room of 10 * 10.
 The Indian army keeps a record of Militants killed in Kashmir and the percentage of Foreign content in those killed. You can check it on http://www.Armyinkashmir.org

by **Mayavi Morpheus** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 2:59 am

continued.... How are the militants operating in Kahsmir? Where are they getting the money and arms from? The answer is paksitan. Those of you who are saying that they are willing to travel to paksitan please do so. Go there and see yourself how young men are incited to join Jihad. How money is collected to finance terrorist organization. Why Masood Azhar (the one released in exchange for IC814) meeting attract lakhs of people. These are the same paksitanis with whom you want to make friendship. Its the pakistani people who give alms to the Jihadi organizations and the government/ISI gives arms. These people may not know what they are doing, they are jist giving alms to the savious of Islam who are going to free Kashmir from the brutal Hindus who are killng and raping muslim women in kashmir. But the truth is different and they donot know what it is owing to their lack of education. Those of you who have paksitani friends may have met the educated secualar folks (yes, a fundamentalist will not talk to an Indian) but they donot represent the whole 150 million paksitanis. \\\'Pakistani\\\' as such is not a problem and is not a person to be hated. But paksitan is. Their establishement is, their army is. The country which is a seventh of India in Size and a tenth in GDP has an army half the size of Indian Army. More than half a million people, who are filthy rich (officers). To justify this they need enemity with India. If Kashmir is solved, the reason for their existence ceases to exist and this they wont let it happen. If Kashmir is solved, the ruling mullahs will be out of job. They wont get money and power. And to the gentleman who suggested us to read Dawn, plese do so yourself, read any report of Kashmir and the Terrorrists are called Shaheeds/freedom fighters. Those innocent civilians killed by the Terrorist grenades are shown as being killed by Indian army. This spreads hate. Read the articles, which spread utter lies about India. The average paksitani mind is tuned to Hate India and Hindus in particular, they may be friendly towards Indian muslims, thats more out of sympathy as they feel that Hindus are killing muslims but as long as they dont accept the existence of a Majority Hindu, secualr neighbour, there cant be any peace. And if you guys think that a bus service, plane service and operating on baby noor is going to change the situation, then you are living in Eutopian world. The gandhanian times are over, we cant take killings of our brethren and still show a hand of friendship. As long as there is no democarcy in paksitan, there wont be any peace. Paskitan is not just Indias problem, but the whole worlds problem. Every terrorist strike in World has a paki-satani connection. They are either paksitani (Recent Turkey bombing, Kashmir terrorrists, UK pakistanis) or Paksitani trained ( Bali bombing, Alqaida, Taleban) or given asylum in paksitan (Again Mullah Omar, Al Keeda). They are danger to wrolds peace. They gave nukes to North Korea endagering Japan and South Korea, they are sponsoring terrorrism in Kashmir and de-stabilizing Afghanistan by supporting Talebans resurgence.

by **archana** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 3:30 am

holy shit!!! I never knew all this before.. Mayavi, you have shown me more than I ever knew !!! Why does India tolerate this nonsense with Pakistan? Bush is an ass and he still supports and helps pakistan though that country is the backbone of terrorism worldwide.
 
 And even after what Mayavi has posted here, if anyone stil supports pakistan and uses words like zindabad, I have only one suggestion to them - GO TO PAKISTAN !!

by **Mayavi Morpheus** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 3:51 am

Here is a research report on paksitani education system (which is the root cause for jihad and hatred for India and secualrism) by A.H Nayyar and Ahmed Salim
 
 http://www.sdpi.org/what%27s_new/reporton/State%20of%20Curr&Textbooks(final-BB).pdf
 
 You can also check it from here:
 http://www.sdpi.org/archive/nayyar_report.htm
 
 and a Time Magazine report on Jihad, how paksitanis support Kihad in Ksahmir and Rest of India
 http://www.time.com/time/asia/magazine/2001/0205/kashmir_sb1.html

by **archana** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 4:04 am

damn, its so true!!! and everything is out there for the whole world to see.. Mayavi, if our other friendly indians still want to go out and make paki friends, let them.
 
 After all, when you look at the sun with bare eyes, you feel the excessive brightness, and move your face away immediately or close your eyes;
 but if you look at it with goggles, you can see it, but internally your eyes will get screwed permanently !!!!
 
 I am glad you and I are not wearing goggles to look at this situation, Mayavi !

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