Today\'s Indian Muslims were yesterday\'s Hindus, right?

by **johnny** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 1:37 pm

hi justalil.. i just wanna add a few more points..
 
 ARYANS as a word didnt describe race.. ARYA means The Noble Person. Apparantly Arya existed even for the dravidians... the kings and most learned men of the ancient indian society were called aryans..
 
 Acc. to AIT, the indus valley civilisation people, the harrappan civilisation was conquered and destroyed.. first of all Aryans as claimed by the AIT were just nomads... wandering group of people on horse backs.. How can a noamadic community dominate harappan civilisation which was far more advanced...
 acc. to AIT aryans were frm central asia.. central asia was never known( even now) to have developed considerable population.. so such a small wandering population cud not possibly had devastated the whole more populous harappan bunch...
 Even the archeological findings at the mohenjadaro and other indus valley civilisation cities dont contain the evidence of being destroyed by warfare.. they give a claear picture of a natural calamity destroying the city..
 
 And acc. to AIT they came from central asia, why would anyone go opposite to the flow of the rivers which was the most reliable source of navigation for them..
 
 finally my conclusion... i am not saying aryans were the only superior race in the world and all of them were the direct descendants of the mankind which started at saraswati....in india...
 what i say is aryans and dravidians were all the same who had a common civilistaion of vedic belief.. developed and native to india.. and not because of any foreign invasion.. i am not sure about these people conquering rest of the world.. but they sure were a very advanced civilisation who followed the vedic way of life....

by **JustaLittleUnwell** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:25 pm

MM, Mr.David Frawley made an interesting reading

Btw, this is what the duo of Indologists I quoted (Michael Witzel & Steve Farmer) had to say about people like him:
 
 \"Ironically, many of those expressing these anti-migrational views are emigrants themselves, engineers or technocrats like N.S. Rajaram, S. Kak, and S. Kalyanaraman, who ship their ideas to India from U.S. shores. They find allies in a broader assortment of home-grown nationalists including university professors, bank employees, and politicians (S. S. Misra, S. Talageri, K.D. Sethna, S.P. Gupta, Bh. Singh, M. Shendge, Bh. Gidwani, P. Chaudhuri, A. Shourie, S.R. Goel). They have even gained a small but vocal following in the West among \"New Age\" writers or researchers outside mainstream scholarship, including D. Frawley, G. Feuerstein, K. Klostermaier, and K. Elst. Whole publishing firms, such as the Voice of India and Aditya Prakashan, are devoted to propagating their ideas.\"
 
 Comparing their credentials, the bio of D Frawley reads: \"David Frawley, a well-known Vedic scholar, runs the American Institute of Vedic Studies in Santa Fe, New Mexico. He is also a famed Ayurveda doctor.\"
 
 \"Michael Witzel is Wales Professor of Sanskrit at Harvard University and the author of many publications, including the recent monograph Early Sources for South Asian Substrate Languages, Boston: ASLIP/Mother Tongue 1999. A collecti on of his Vedic studies will be published in India by Orient Longman later this year. He is also editor of The Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies, accessible through his home page at http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm\"
 
 \"Steve Farmer, who received his doctorate from Stanford University, has held a number of academic posts in premodern history and the history of science. Among his recent works is his book Syncretism in the West, which develops a cross-cultural m odel of the evolution of traditional religious and philosophical systems.\"
 
 I\'m posting this comparative bios just to make sure that history is an acedemic subject and not a political / religious one, and that we make sure we rely on credible sources while dealing with such a sensitive issue.
 
 Now about your sense of pride: You dont need manufactured lies about something that happened 3500 years ago, to feel at home in this country. You were born and brought up here (i presume) and the same is the case with your parents (again, i presume), and that is enough to feel a sense of belonging and pride, about the place which you consider is yours. Also, why are you bothered about what the Aryans were? After 3500 years of mixing and matching, no one can claim that he/she is 100% Aryan or Dravidian - even the Punditest of the Pundits

(even i\'m a POTP too, so no issues) As a POTP, I can challenge Mr.Karunanidhi to prove that he\'s more Dravidian than me or that i\'m more Aryan than him.
 
 To the best of my knowledge, the Christian proseltysers in the North East are from TN & Kerala, and why they would advocate separation is beyond my comprehension. Is this a Hindutva attempt to paint prosletysers as anti-nationals? As is stands, it is perfectly legal to prosletyse, but with the Hindu Nationalists in power, the situation may soon change.
 
 Nice to hear that you are a fan of Hitler\'s methods (not surprising). As the success of USA has shown, you don\'t need a 10000 years history doctored to suit political ambitions, to become a strong country.
 
 A few years ago, there was a fraud who claimed that he can manufacture petrol from herbs. I take pride in the Indian scientific community that diligently verified his claims and pronounced what he really is - a fraud. People like Romila Thapar are doing a similar job, and unfortunately get branded as commie or get accused of being in their payroll etc.

by **JustaLittleUnwell** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 2:57 pm

Johnny, thanks for acknowledging that Saraswati was not the cradle of civilization

Reg. Aryan superiority over Harappans in war, there are several theories - the speed offered by Aryan horses and chariots, the kind of weaponry i.e. the Harappans were not having knowledge of defensive weapons like armour, helmet, shield etc. Anyways, these are theories and i\'m not an expert. Some historians also suggest that the native Harappan population got wiped out in a natural calamity, and after half a millineum, Aryan tribes migrated and settled in the Indo-Gangetic plains etc. (thereby suggesting that there was no invasion by Aryans but just a migration from outside). I\'m sure the Aryans were a great tribe as they could survive against all odds and lay the foundations for a great country that we are today.
 
 Whatever be the truth, it has to come from credible sources, and has to be critically verified. A half baked history account which flies in the face of logic cannot be hurriedly accepted to satisty political ambitions at home.

by **Mayavi Morpheus** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:03 am

Justa...
 First of all, lets not go into personal attacks. In my post I never said that I admire Hitler methods. Please do not try to read between lines. I donot admire his methods,and I only asked whats wrong with his methods from an Indian POV. Its a question. We can have a seperate thread for that, but please please please donot put words in my mouth.
 
 I have not read the Hindu link you provided, about the two Indian archy\'s. I donot know and do not understand what they are saying. I provided you a link of an American author. I did not find a single sentence in your post which rebuts Davids article. The emmigrant thing is about Indians and not David fa..whatever.
 
 I dont understand your bias for Harvard archys. YOu have quoted American researchers, and I have quoted American researchers too. Both have opposing views, I dunno why you are agreeing with only one view.
 
 Comparing Ramans Herbal petrol with Romila Thapars History is a bad example IMO. Some Indian scientists also ridiculed our use of HAldI (turmeric) as a medicine, they only realised its importance when an American scientis patented it. I hope you get what I am trying to say, just one example of Herbal petrrol doesnt mean that everything Indians do can be ridiculed. It seems that you want to see everything made in India to be proven false.
 Some Nagpur based Ph.D student recently patented (American patent) a process for making petrol out of plastic, which was initially ridiculed by Indian scientists (now they accept it). So can I compare it with Romila Thapars view on History and say she is ignorant?
 
 Coming to the Original Poinnt, I will give you an example of Egyptologists. Egypt is the only culture, AFAIK, which has left behid vast amounts of clues about its society. With all those pyramids and mummies and artefacts, Egyptologists are not able to identify how they built those pyramids, there are still contradicting theories (which are respected by scientific community) about the succession of Kings, how they are killed etc. Compared to Egypt, Harappa ad Mohenjadharo cultures have left behind very few clues, and there is no concrete evidence yet to prove that their civilizatgion was destroyed by invading Aryan forces.
 
 Archy\'s are yet to produce concrete proof of Aryan Invasion Theory. I am wondering why you are so inclined to accept their theory and ridicule others theory? The same western scientists are fighting over their ow theory, so why do u want to accept something which everyone doesnt agree upon.
 
 Regarding National Integration, please refer to the title of this topic. Muslims were original Hindus. Some one still harbours the view that Muslims were Hindus orignially, can you gaurantee me that tomorrow there wont be a topic titled \"Aryan are not Indians, get out of India\"?
 And before you laugh at that thought, I recommend you to visit dalitstan.org. They have well \"researched\" articles which precisely say the same thing about 7% of Indians (brahmins), that they are not Indians at all, based on Aryan Theory. You have to see it to believe it.
 
 I have no doubts about my nationality and my ancestors, I am as much Indian as you are, but why should I accept that my ancestors (even 3000 years old) are not Indians?
 I can pose the same question to you right? Why should I or even you, accept a faulty theory that my ancestors are not Indians?
 Prove to me that Aryan Invasion theory is true. I keep my mind open, I am willing to change my views given a Non biased scientific research analysis, not sponsored by vested interests, that includes Hindutva forces. Infact I was a believer of AIT since my child hood (ever sicne I read about it in my eigth grade), its only recently that I asked myself the question about the validity of the AIT, I couldnt find an answer to my question.
 To conclude, any new law when put forth by scientists is called Hypothesis, they always need to prove it. Till that time they remain Hypothesis and not Laws. It doesnt necessarily mean that the Hypothesis is wrong, it only means that it cannot be proved. And if you cant prove something, then its not accepted.
 
 PS: I am presuming that you dont know answers to the sepoy Mutiy, NE conversions, relation between Historians and Communists, whcih is why you conveniently skipped answering those parts.

by **JustaLittleUnwell** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:45 am

Mayavi, I doubt if you read my posts completely - and I dont blame you, coz it is unduly lengthy (unfortunately). But if you can just take the trouble to read it, you will find that I have in fact addressed many of your questions. I dont blame you for not understanding the \'archies\' link, as it is very domain-specialized. This is exactly my contention - that it is an advanced domain requiring a lot of patience and hard work to put together pieces of information and weave a hypothesis. It is my belief that ameteurs who have got into this activity to hurriedly revise history lack the expertise or the methodology to take up whatever they have embarked upon. Since we are increasingly not making sense to each other, and since there is no participation from others as well, I would rather conclude my postings on this thread, as even I do not enjoy typing lengthy posts. Thanks for the discussion, it was a pleasure.

by **Mayavi Morpheus** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:39 am

Justa... I read everything in ur post except the one para where you talked about NE.
 Anyway, We are going in circles here, you dont want to budge from your view, nor do u provide concrete evidence to prove me wrong.
 But few things I want to tell you. If you donot have any thing valid to say, then please refrain from commenting , but please donot attach Hindutva motives to every issue. It reflects badly on ur intellect.
 The Hindutva forces may be pursuing some issues which they think may be usefull for increasing their clout, but it in no way means that they are fabricating stories.
 For example, the AIT acc. to some Western Historians took place around 1500 BC, u stated that the BJP forces have saffronized history and changed the date to 1500 BC.
 [\'Hindutva\' forces started dominating India since 1997, prior to that we had socialist Historians, who agreed with ur view. The govt was also socialist, so its not easy to rewrite history acc. to the will of Hindu \'fascists\']
 Similarly, you stated that Hindutva forces may be involved in reports about NE missionaries. Its just a News report that appeared on internet and Francis gaut..a french journalist wrote about it in one of his articles. Without any knowledge you predicted a link between that report and Hindutva.
 
 Please quit seeing thru hate glasses. There is much more to India than Hindutva. Please donot link everything to Hindutva, there are many intellectuals, ordinary people who may not be Hindu fascists, yet disagree with some of your theories.
 
 And a small suggestion. Quit reading the Pra\'fool\' bidwai, Arun\'dhoti\' roy and Dilip Dsouza articles on rediff.

by **Mayavi Morpheus** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:23 am

One final post to adress some of ur points, which I missed:
 

 
In one of ur posts u wrote:
 
\"You may want to fantasize & believe that ancient Indians went in all directions and conquered territory, which is unfortunately not true. The truth is we were invaded and beaten black & blue by every 2-bit country & tribal clan. You better grow up and get used to this already. Rewriting history may probably help in pampering bruised egos of insecure minds, but will not take us any further. Time to get real, buddy \"
 

 
Nope, Indians are Indians, and Europeans are Europeans, all evolved from a Homosapeans in Africa and migrated to Europe and later to India.
 
About every 2-bit country beating India...I talked about this in my posts, to which u said that we dont need to disprove Aryan Theory to have pride in our nation. Well From ur quote above, it seems that we definitely need to find the truth. bruised egos, insecure minds...I dont want to talk about it.
 

 
\"Let us hope the real version emerges. \"
 

 
We tried to do the same, but unfortunately u struck to ur view and ridiculed everything as \'Hindutva\' propaganda.
 

 
\"I wouldn\'t be so quick to form an opinion but for the peculiar fact that the ardent anti-AIT-ians (AIT - Aryan Invasion Theory) were all from the Hindutva clan. Now, it is my strong belief that Hindutvawadis are the lowest forms of life this country has ever produced

So, naturally my radars went up and I diligently digged out this gem of a piece by two Indologists from Harvard. This is must read for everyone to understand the extent to which the Hindutvawadis will stoop to manipulate history in order to mobilize public opinion (not very different from the way Pakistani zealots function). Pls read the article that was published in Frontline: \"
 
 
\"And the dates - the anti-AIT lobby has played around with it like anything, that you can lose hope of any scientific method of substantiating a theory\"
 
 
So what were the proponents of AIT doing while anti-AIT is messing with dates?
 
 
By the way u can check out Dr.Koenraad elst\'s works where he answers all of ur questions, and my questions too.
 
And mind you he is not bank rolled by Hindus. He is in a very bad financial state now and is finding it hard to meet ends. So you can rule out any of the anti-AIT Hindu lobby.
 
In his book u can also find out why most Indians in American Universities are rabid AIT proponenets and why most of them (including Thappar) are marxists.

by **bhai-bhai** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:43 pm

Hey Guys, You had been an excellent source of information that I had been seeking since... what? my thoroughly AITised history classes in my school !! thanx. Alas, You seem to have reached a deadlock here, so, instead, why dont you guys put forth your mode of thoughts so that we \'the-participants-by-reading\' ( I am sure there are scores of us who are awaitng for the new info with abated breath ) can come to our own conclusions using atleast that much of our brains.. please, pretty please ? I know the emotions must be running high on all the camps.. yet, lets go back to the INDIAN roots... I am very eager

by **Baigan** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:45 am

Sir ,
 

 
Can you please explain how Buddhism vanished from India, the place of its birth. Surely, it was not done peacefully.

by **Mayavi Morpheus** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:34 am

Seems u pressed submit before u could edit ur post. No harm.
 

 
One thing you have to realize is that no religion, by way of teachings, is violent. Its the followers who spread hate or peace. No religion teaches its followers to hate other religions, be it Hinduism, Christianity or Islaam.
 

 
Anyway, regarding Buddhism, I dont know of any genocide committed by Hindus on Buddhists. The Hindus did try to stop the spread of Buddhsim by building more temples, but I am not aware of any destruction of Buddhist temples or killing of monks. If you know of anything, please post it here.
 
[Buddhsits didnt fight, so its very easy to kill that religion, if Hindus really tried to kill buddhism then we wouldnt see Bodh Gaya today.]

by **Atul** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:20 am

Hats off Mayavi Morpheus to you!! I have read almost all your postings on this topic and they are very informative. One thing hurts me is about the intolerance shown by people on this board towards the postings of tipu. It is this intolerance thats painting a very wrong picture of hindus. Looking forward to read more from you.

by **Andhraite** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 12:40 pm

Baigan,
 
 We HINDUS see buddhists as HINDUS ... Even the buddhists know that its origin is from Hinduism in INDIA !!! Today, as u said u don\'t find too many buddhists around us in INDIA, why ??? -------------- B\'coz, even we HINDUS pray to Lord Buddha,thats why u see Buddha statue in Hussainsagar. So, there is no need to convert into buddhist to foolow Buddha. By being a HINDU also u can do the same thing !!!
 
 BTW Buddha never asked anyone to convert to buddhism, he just suggested some new ways in living life. But, it was others, who gave the name to the people who follow those teachings as buddhists ...
 
 Today, u may ask then if both r same, then why some r called buddhists and others r called hindus, thats b\'coz we HINDUS worship many others gods besides Buddha, wheras the buddhists worship only Buddha and some other who r related to buddhism ...
 
 What do u say Mayavi, am i right ???

by MM » Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:24 pm

Baigan, hold ur tongue (i saw what u wrote before ur post was changed by moderator),
 
 --- \" HINDUISM is THE religion for PEACE !!! \"
 
 As well said in Andhraite\'s post, we Hindus worship Buddha even after he brought some changes into the system , even after (today)his principles r considered as another religion ...
 
 U must be knowing Sai Baba, he is from muslim community, but still we worship HIM big time !!! I\'m not sure, how many muslims worship him if not worshipping atleast respect HIM. He died some 90-100 yrs back. When britishers r ruling in INDIA and making riots in India using their wicked brains, they tried & succeeded in dividing Indians into Hindus, Muslims & Christians. Baba always said that, whether u r Hindu or muslim or christian doesn\'t matter, but, what matters is, how good u r as a human-being. He tried his level best to make Indians to be unitied even in such difficult situation. I see a lot Hindus, Sikhs and even Christians coming to Shirdi from all over India.
 
 Why must we worship HIM when he is a muslim? b\'coz we believe he is not an ordinary person, he is above other human beings, same with Buddha, even if both of them r from different religions, we still worship them from the bottom of our Heart !!! Thats more than enough to show that HINDUISM stands for PEACE, PEACE and more PEACE.

by **johnny** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:38 am

My First Dig... :twisted:

Look out for Mayavi JustaLil and Urs truly

in action.

by **akhilis2cool** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:10 pm

grrrrrrrrrrr

hey azazel need supari to finish him????

by **justforfun** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:51 pm

johnny wrote:My First Dig...

Look out for Mayavi JustaLil and Urs truly in action.

well it was good... i didn't went through all the stuff but it looks like i m surrounded by intelli people...

i wont kill u for digging ...

by **Jaszalcatraz** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:09 pm

justforfun wrote:well it was good... i didn't went through all the stuff but it looks like i m surrounded by intelli people...

Bwaaaaaahahahah........yeah right.

And I am the intelligentesterest of them all.

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