Today\'s Indian Muslims were yesterday\'s Hindus, right?

by **Bhai-Bhai** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:52 pm

.. for whatever reasons, they converted. Yet, essentially they were Hindus. Aw.w. come\'n, we are truly related.. Wow ! and then, if thought on the same premise, the Pakistanis are also basically Indians/Hindus !!! Whoa.. and Afghanis..? got to have my Indian history clearer. Whatever. Lets just stick to Indian hindu/muslim history. not the adam and eve stuff.. nor the bad mouthing which I do get to see, though occasionally, on these boards.

by **Tipu** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:59 am

Hi,India in olden days was not like the India ur seeing now,Infact entire subcontinent used to be called as india(Pakistan,bangladesh,India,srilanka,nepal,burma).In Arab,they now also call the entire region as Al-Hind.

by **pradeep** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 3:00 pm

I dont think uve read ur book called \'GEETA\' anytime. Read
 it once, ull get it , To be clear there is no such word called hindu in that book, you go for any version. The answer will be no. Becoz there r no people with the word called hindu, is it manufactured dear.

by **Tipu** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 6:10 pm

ya,I knew it,Al-Hind does not have to do nay thing with HINDU its entierly different

by **Bhai-Bhai** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 7:46 pm

ok..? then what are we those of us who pray to Lord Krishna or Lord Rama and all the rest of of our Gods, Pradeep ?

by **bhai-bhai** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 7:47 pm

.. and Tipu. (cute name).

by **Tipu** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:20 pm

HI,Everyone:(This is some information I knew from old literature,If it is wrong or hurts anyone then I am really sorry)
 The term \'Hinduism\' has been derived from \'Hindu\'. \'Hindu\' is a Persian word which means dark . The word was first used by rulers who invaded India, for the inhabitants of the \'land beyond the Indus (Sindhu) river\' and later, for the ancient Indians in general. The word was never used in Indian literature or scriptures before the advent of Outside rulers to India. According to Jawaharlal Nehru, the earliest reference to the word \'Hindu\' can be traced to a Tantrik book of the eighth century C.E., where the word means a people, and not the followers of a particular religion. The use of the word \'Hindu\' in connection with a particular religion is of very late occurrence [ 4 ].
 The Muslim rulers used the term \'Hindu\' to mean Indian non-Muslims only. The Brahmans gladly welcomed it as it brought all the non-Muslim Indians under a single umbrella and thus provided them with a rare opportunity to expand their social, religious and political influence over them in the name of religion. The British rulers maintained it with one modification. They excluded the converted Christians from those covered by the term \'Hindu\'.
 Hindu scholars sometime use the word Sanatan Dharma (eternal religion) and sometime Vedic Dharma (religion of the Veda), etc. for their religion. But as names of their religion, these words are also untenable as they do not imply anything precise for all the people called Hindu.

by **tipu** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:23 pm

continuation......
 The Brahmans occupy the highest position in the hierarchy of the caste system. They are said to have sprung from the mouth of Brahma (god), they are the rightful possessors of the Veda. They possess spiritual superiority by birth. They have the monopoly right to act as priests, conduct religious ceremonies and festivals, and accept alms. The Brahman is the deity on earth by his divine status [ 11 ],\" born to fulfil dharma. Whatever exists in the world is his property. On account of the excellence of his origin, he is entitled to all. \"Let a Brahman be ignorant or learned, still he is a great deity. To Brahman, the three worlds and the gods owe\'s their existence.
 If the above message is wrong correct me.And I am sorry if its wrong,but I got this from an authentic english history book

by **JustaLittleUnwell** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 8:57 pm

Tipu, I think you are quoting from Nehru\'s book which I guess is probably biased by his persepectives gained in the West. If \'Hindu\' refers to non-Muslim, non-Christian Indians, what about the Hindus who are not Indians (Nepalese, Sri Lankans, Balinese, ancient Cambodians / Thais etc.)? And what about those Indians who are Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains etc. and hence are not Hindus?
 
 I think even though the name \'Hindu\' might not have been prevalent, Hindus are identified by the Gods they worship and the philosophy they practise as espoused in the epics -Ramayan and Mahabharat. It is however not a monolithic religion and there are so many flavors to it. It\'s somewhat like the open source software which anyone can use, re-use, extend, share etc. so you will find every region practising its own flavor of Hinduism.
 
 Btw, we are just having an academic debate, so no need to offer apologies / disclaimers etc. for what you post.

by **Tipu** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:09 pm

hi,Jus\'--Lil,Then y u follow that relegion which donot have any authenticity,about its scriptures,from were they came etc,.For Example Jews Belive in Old testaments(Toaurat,Zaboor),Christians in Bible(Engil) and Muslims in Quran.This are the four Holy books which we believe that they have been revealed by GOd to mankind,and its written in Quran,its also written that Jews and Christians have altered their scripts,(now u can find many bibles,which have conflict with each other),and in present world Quran is the only book which is unaltered (for more than 14 centures).What do u think of life after death?.Why God has created us,just to work live enjoy and die?,or to worship him and do how he ordered us to do.

by **JustaLittleUnwell** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:24 pm

That was a good one

I was explaining to you the basis for identifying a person as Hindu. I was not going into whether Hindus are justfied in following Gita or whether Muslims are justified in following Quran etc. I hope you got me right this time.
 
 I need to catch up with other things

by **tipu** » Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:59 pm

Hi,jus``lil,I understood what u were telling,but I just want u to think about that,which is the most important thing,bcos it has to do with our very creation.

by **Johnny** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 12:09 am

hi tipu and justlil... i have been following this thread with great interest... i wanna share some facts which i have acquired after a thorough reasearch.. religion and spirtuality has always been my interest..
 Ok now coming ot the point of hindus.. well yeah no such term as HINDU exists anywhere in our VEDAS( vedas are the ultimate truth) the people who followed vedas were basically aryans.. and they were said to be belonging to the VAIDIKA MATHA ( vedic religion) and most of the present so called hindus are from vaidika matha...
 Previously in the original vedas there was never any mention of IDOL worship.. Vaidika matha believed in the existence of the PARMATMA ( the supreme soul) and all the human beings are the atmas... the original vedic people used to worship this parmatma who didnt have any form or shape and cannot be represented by an idol.. Now the question comes why are the present hindus extensively into IDOL worship?... in the late b.cs during the time of shankaracharya when BUDDHISM was in its full swing and mass conversions were takin place in the subcontinent.. shankaracharya to stop hinduism frm getting diluted, preached IDOL worship and the Temple constructions for a local god in each area so that people can easily identify with the god when they can have some form in their locality.. and hence the faith is strengthened.. well this wasnt totally a right approach but it had to be done to stop buddhism to spread to the major part of india....( cuz as buddhism spread it lost its original preachings and was involving in unethical activities in some parts of India.)
 
 The above information is true to the best of my knowledge in any case if i hurt the sentiments of any particular sect ia m sorry it was purely unintentional

by **Mayavi Morpheus** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:43 am

Tipu, here is the source of your information, which u \'cut\' \'copied\' and \'pasted\'.
 
 http://admin.muslimsonline.com/babri/hinduism1.htm
 
 Am I right?
 
 That site has some gems like
 
 \"Hindu scriptures are essentially pornographic in nature\"
 \"full of sexual allusion\"
 \"Some religious sects even introduced ritual intercourse as part of their cult and a potent aid to salvation \"
 This is the best:
 \"The sexual life of Krishna, an incarnation of Vishnu, is well-known for its indecency\"
 
 The author of that tubbish, unnamed, though quoted some references for formaliuty sake[Nehrus Discovery of India in one of them], took the sentences in wrong sense, out of context and added his own bias.
 Now I dont blame you for reading such stuff which is widely circualted on internet and to community members of certain faith in particular, as an educated I expect you to differentaite between what is right and what is wrong.
 I dont want to educate you on Hindusim or Hindu dharma as I Know that its sin for you, and You wont be interested in knowing about Hinduism anyway.
 An Old religion like Hinduism cant be understood by reading some internet sites, why hindusim, any religion cannot be udnerstood effectilvey explained in one page (except for propaganda).
 For example a If a westerner see\'s me worshipping Kali, he will think that I am practicing \'Witch craft\' (he\'s not to blame), how\'ll he know that Kali represent the epitome of women empowerment and that she donned that avatar to kill the evil?
 Just imagine, what would be the Islam from Praveen Togadia or Bal Thcakrey\'s point of view? Do you think that they will lavish praises for Islaam? No my dear. Jsut ask any American what Islaam means to him, you\'ll probably hear a much worse version. Just ask US General boinke(?).

by **berkut** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 5:58 am

the word hinduism doesnt exist in the ancient texts because ...the proper name for hinduism is \"santan dharma\" isnt it ?

by **bhai-bhai** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:35 am

Informative discussion but, Still, todays Indian Muslims are yesterdays\' Sanatana Dharam/Hindus, right?

by **bhai-bhai** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:39 am

Uh.o. yeh kya hogaya tippu bhai !!? kya yeh sahi hai ke aapne iss se copy/paste kiyye hai kya? !!

Let us make it into more informative issue rather than a religious one. I would like to know more about various religions.

by **tipu** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 12:54 pm

HI,MMorphoes,ya u are correct,that we canot expect good thing about Islam from the person who hate it,but after sept 11,number of citizes of US and europe who accepted islam is much more than,in previous day\'s.Bcos,after looking at that horrifaying acts,western people sta´rted to read Quran,as to know actually what it teaches,but after reading quran,many can to know the truth and accepted islam.

by ZC » Fri Oct 31, 2003 1:01 pm

going a bit more back in time, there is no christianity, islam, hinduism etc, etc. everyone is same. or r they really r ? i think there should be only two religions 1.) Blood group with rh positive 2.) blood group with rh negative . like the lilliputs in Gullivers travels 1.) who break egg from middle 2.) who break egg from side. now dont ask me which is MIDDLE and which is SIDE ;-)

anyway there will be only be two types humans left(or should i say x-men) from HG wells \"time machine\"

by **tipu** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 1:03 pm

ya,bhai bhai,u are correct that many of the present muslims have accepted islam(by Allah\'s grace) centuries ago,but u just think y any one accept any other strange religion,and invite the hostality of his religion people?.Answer is only one one finds,the TRUTH,when u come to know the true think u will no more do the wrong things,bcos ur hearth will not allow.If u want,I can the life history of many people who got converted from christianity and other reliongs,to islam,do u know Catstevenson(Famous rock singer of UK),he accepted islam,some years,know he left every thing,singing etc,which was fetching him lot of money and fame,Why do u think that he left his family ,money,fame,every thing for islam,u only think it to urself,similarly,Miketoyson(boxer) nad many more.If u want to know about islam tell me I will give u very good sites,which shows some of the miracles of Quran,with videos,many of my himdu friends have also seen it.

by **tipu** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 1:04 pm

ya,bhai bhai,u are correct that many of the present muslims have accepted islam(by Allah\'s grace) centuries ago,but u just think y any one accept any other strange religion,and invite the hostality of his religion people?.Answer is only one one finds,the TRUTH,when u come to know the true think u will no more do the wrong things,bcos ur hearth will not allow.If u want,I can the life history of many people who got converted from christianity and other reliongs,to islam,do u know Catstevenson(Famous rock singer of UK),he accepted islam,some years,know he left every thing,singing etc,which was fetching him lot of money and fame,Why do u think that he left his family ,money,fame,every thing for islam,u only think it to urself,similarly,Miketoyson(boxer) nad many more.If u want to know about islam tell me I will give u very good sites,which shows some of the miracles of Quran,with videos,many of my hinu friends have also seen it.

by ZC » Fri Oct 31, 2003 1:09 pm

and many people of different religions have embrassed Hinduism, through ISKON/Prabhu pada and MAHARISHI/ Mahesh Yogi

by **johnny** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 1:33 pm

hey tipu bhai... ur argument doesnt seem to be really strong i dont know what motivated mike tyson and catstevenson to convert but i surely do know most of the hindu/buddhism to islam conversions in indian sub continent many centuries ago were forced upon by the moslem rulers.. eg aurangazeb it is said that he never let any day pass without converting atleast some poeple to islam.. and byt his i am not sayin people cant be self motivated.. but the history tells a different story..

by ZC » Fri Oct 31, 2003 1:36 pm

going a bit more back in time, there is no christianity, islam, hinduism etc, etc. everyone is same. or r they really r ? i think there should be only two religions 1.) Blood group with rh positive 2.) blood group with rh negative . like the lilliputs in Gullivers travels 1.) who break egg from middle 2.) who break egg from side. now dont ask me which is MIDDLE and which is SIDE ;-)

anyway there will be only be two types humans left(or should i say x-men) from HG wells \"time machine\"

by **bhai-bhai** » Fri Oct 31, 2003 1:47 pm

No, tipu I do not want to convert into Islam.Anyways, as I said Hinduism or Sanatana Dharma is one of the oldest religions known to man. and todays Indian Muslims were yesterdays\' Hindus ( I do know I am being reptetive, per kaya karoon yaar, koin mujhe seedhi tarhha ans dera nahin !). I just want to know that most of the present day Indian muslims were Hindus before the Moguls came to rule India, right? I have NOT brought up any othe rissue yet on this board about which is better or which is worse .. just this, Budhism, Sikhism, Jainism,Islam, Judaism, and Christianity, the present day religions came into being a way later. So getting back to my original premise: The present day major religions: Muslims/ Budhists/ Sikhs/ Jains/ Christians/ Jews/ etc were Hindus of India and the partioned India..

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