Is it wrong being a Non-Vegetarian?

by **open** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 3:12 pm

Looks like you are alright now...

by **Ramesh** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 11:23 pm

As always...

by **Ramesh.** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 11:27 pm

At least I am not causing any pain to anyone. You are both killing as well as causing a lot of unbearable pain. And you are doing this in spite of having an alternative - just for pleasure\'s sake. It\'s not at all necessary. Hope you know the difference between necessity and pleasure. Had there been any alternative to taking food, I would have done that.

by **Aadi** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 4:23 pm

Firstly, if you really think that this arguement is stupid you wouldn\'t have started this bulletin. Secondly, it has never been proved that plants have feelings. I think you got it wrong, brother. Plants grow when we water them. Your nails too grow. Do you ever feel any pain when you cut them? Plants too do not feel the pain b'cos they lack what is called conciousness. Conciousness - I mean the ability to feel sensations such as pain, suffering, and a desire to live. Plants do not possess anything even remotely resembling a nervous system. So, it is extremely unlikely that plants can feel pain or suffering. I think you got the point.
 
I don\'t get this stupid arguement that by being Non-vegetarian you are killing a living being. If that is the case even vegetables and trees have life, it\'s been proved that even plants have feelings. Then how is it justifiable in eating a vegetarian diet when you are killing a living being? I would like your comments.

by **Aadi** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 4:35 pm

Sorry, something got pasted over the bottom of my message.

by **bornhyderabadi** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 4:55 pm

I always knew it\'s a stupid arguement and started this board to prove it. First of all, when I said plants have feelings (and its been proved) I said it with enough backing. There are enough experiments to prove it.
 
\"Just as Descartes managed to ignore the obvious when he said that animals were unfeeling machines, there is considerable evidence that plants are much more aware than we commonly believe. Using a definition of pain that is based on possession of a nervous system deliberately and arbitrarily excludes plants. Yet plants are clearly aware of when they are being attacked because they mobilize chemical defenses. Just as meat eaters try to deny the fact that animals feel pain, vegans try to deny the fact that plants feel something akin to pain -- something that could be used to justify not killing them. If we ever encounter aliens, the chances that they have a nervous system like ours is vanishingly small, but we would nonetheless assume that they feel what we would categorize as pain.\"
 
Check these links for more insight on this.
 
http://www.vegetus.org/essay/plants.htm
 
http://www.gardenseeker.com/do_plants_have_feelings_.htm
 
http://www.inq7.net/lif/2003/jun/24/lif_22-1.htm
 
There are inumerable such examples but I think this is enough for you for now. By the way nobody waters palnts in forests. They fend for themselves

)
 
Your logic on nervous system has already been raised in this board and I have given answers to them. You can follow them on this board.
 
\"Consciousness - I mean the ability to feel sensations such as pain\". Even this issue has been raised, if you need answers check it in the board. Hint: Anasthesia
 
Thanks

by **Aadi** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:02 pm

Yeah, you indeed have the backing for your statement. I agree, it\'s stupid to argue on this and found out that its not my cup of tea. I\'m not against any non-veggies. Everyone has their own ideas of surviving. I\'m happy being a veggie, and I prefer being like this.
 
Thanks.

by **Andhraite** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:05 pm

Awesome man... Good work...
 
Arey when they are not ready to accept facts and to face them, stop worrying about them .
 
For sure, come 100 years, and still they will not be ready to accept this.

by **bornhyderabadi** » Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:50 pm

Aadi, I honour your preference. I fully agree with you when you say that everyone has a right a make a decision. I myself hate forcing anyone to go by a certain system. One needs to make a conscious choice.
 
What I am saying is that you don\'t hear people crib about vegetarians but you hear a lot about non-vegetarians being criticised. I myself had put up with it. Why these double standards?

by **bornhyderabadi** » Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:26 pm

Thanks man

by **Ramesh** » Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:15 pm

Well Andhraite,
 If u want to be ignorant or pretend to be ignorant, nobody can help u.

by **Andhraite** » Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:37 am

When people like you are being stubborn to accept the facts, then it\'s good to ignore or pretend to ignore you guys.

by **Ramesh** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 8:32 pm

You are determined to eat non-veg, come what may. Even if Lord Rama or Krishna comes and tells you the facts. Then what\'s the point in arguing? After all, you can do anything to get your taste buds ticking.

by **Ramesh** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 9:05 pm

BH,
 
I am not interested in classification of your perspectives. What I want to say is though both veg and non-veg are cruel in some sense, in my view the harm caused by a vegetarian is very less compared to the harm caused by a non-veg because of the simple fact that plants don\'t feel pain. I think there is unanimity over this issue i.e. plants don\'t feel pain; so no need of any argument on that. And if you say that both are equally cruel or veg is more cruel than non-veg, I have nothing to say. It\'s upto you to realise the amount of cruelty one is causing in the process of being both a veg and a non-veg. I can\'t rub my ideas over anyone. I expressed my views in the best possible way.
 
Of course we need to eat something in the end.

by **bornhyderabadi** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 11:42 am

Ramesh, I am happy you admitted that it\'s cruel, be it veg or non-veg. There is nothing like less or more. Stealing 1 rupee or 1 million is the same. You are commiting the crime. It\'s only your self-conscience that you are convincing, but in the eyes of the law it\'s the same - it\'s theft!
 
 
I have given examples regarding plant feelings and urls of websites relating to this in the same board. You can go through that. It will prove plants have feelings. No body can rub their ideas over others. Neither can you nor I. This board is to express our opinions, that\'s all. Through all these postings, I have come across feelings & opinions of so many people which has given a different perspective to the topic. I would have just had my feelings/opinions to myself had I not written them. Now I have a broader prespective. I want everyone to feel the same.
 
 
I never said it\'s more cruel to be a vegetarian, but all I say is it\'s the same, be it veg or non-veg.

by **Ramesh** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 8:01 pm

Yo may say it to yourself and even believe that slapping and murdering both are one and the same and that both should b equally punished. But only those crazy non-vegs will say yeah and even clap at your postings. Apart from that nothing is going to happen. What you said is similar to this example. \"Both are one and the same\"- theft, etc.

by **bornhyderabadi** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:18 am

I am not a fool to say that slapping is the same as murder and should be punished in the same way. My point was not punishment. It never figured in my talk. It only said about committing the act. My point is simple. Whether you slap or murder you are commiting a crime. Similarly, for veg and non-veg.
 
How did you come to the decision that being veg is like slapping and being non-veg is like murdering? Or it\'s a lesser crime or more of a crime? There is no law or rule, either ethical or legal. It]'s just being inculcated by psuedo-vegetarians.
 
I don\'t care who claps or criticises my postings for I am not doing it for others. I am doing it for myself, and I don\'t care if nothing comes out of it. I am here to place my point. If someone feels differently, they may reason it and I shall reciprocate. No harm in that.
 
I don\'t jump to conclusions like you.

by **Ramesh** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 6:59 pm

Bornhyderabadi,
 
I shall explain in your own terms. By eating an animal, you are eating thousands of plants, as the animal has to be fed with those many plants to provide you the meat. I don\'t know exactly but 1 kg of meat means atleast 100 kg of plants. So, even in your own terms, you are eligible for 100 times the punishment compared to the vegetarians. Hope at least this stops you from arguing.
 
 
Now don\'t say a sin is a sin bla bla... If you commit something which is 100 times more harmful, you will be punished 100 times more. At least you need to agree that the ratio between sins of non-veggies and veggies is a very big number, if not infinite.

by **bornhyderabadi** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 7:44 pm

I don\'t deny the fact that animals eat plants and we eat animals. It\'s the food chain. And I don\'t say I am innocent by eating non-vegetarian food, but I don\'t agree with vegetarians who claim to be innocent.

by **Ramesh** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:21 pm

Atleast they are trying to minimise the harm being caused, as there\'s no other go but to eat food. Now don\'t become too scientific all of a sudden. When we are talking about a wrong/sin, it\'s completely from the moral perspective. And from this view point, you are obviously causing more harm and committing a bigger sin than the veggies.
 
Both have all the options open. Only the veggies are selecting the less sinful path (or even sinless) and the non-veggies are not at all bothered about the magnitude of sin they are committing, though they have an alternative.

by **Radha** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:01 pm

Dear all. It may appear long, but please try to read it.
 
 
God created the earth and it\'s wondrous flora and fauna for the benefit of mankind. It is up to man to use every resource in this world judiciously, and treat it as a divine blessing from God.
 
 
‘Vegetarianism’ is now a movement the world over. Many even associate it with animal rights. Indeed, a large number of people consider the consumption of meat and other non-vegetarian products as a violation of animal rights.
 
 
Non-vegetarian food is a good source of excellent protein. It contains biologically complete proteins, i.e. all the 8 essential amino acids that are not synthesized by the body and should be supplied in the diet. Meat also contains iron, vitamin B1 and niacin.
 
 
If you observe the teeth of herbivorous animals like the cow, goat and sheep, you will find something strikingly similar in all of them. All these animals have a set of flat teeth, suited for herbivorous diet. If you observe the set of teeth of the carnivorous animals like the lion, tiger, or leopard, they all have a set of pointed teeth, suited for a carnivorous diet. If you analyze the set of teeth of humans, you find that they have flat teeth as well as pointed teeth. Thus they have teeth suited for both herbivorous as well as carnivorous food, i.e. they are omnivorous. One may ask, if God wanted humans to have only vegetables, why did He provide us also with pointed teeth? It is logical that He expected us to need and to have both vegetarian as well as non-vegetarian food.
 
 
The digestive system of herbivorous animals can digest only vegetables. The digestive system of carnivorous animals can digest only meat. But the digestive system of humans can digest both vegetarian and non-vegetarian food. If Almighty God wanted us to have only vegetables then why did He give us a digestive system that can digest both vegetarian as well as non-vegetarian food?
 
 
Certain people have adopted pure vegetarianism as a dietary law because they are totally against the killing of living creatures. If a person can survive without killing any living creature, I would be the first person to adopt such a way of life. In the past people thought plants were lifeless. Today it is a universal fact that even plants have life. Thus their logic of not killing living creatures is not fulfilled even by being a pure vegetarian. They further argue that plants cannot feel pain. Therefore, killing a plant is a lesser crime compared to killing an animal. Today, science tells us that even plants can feel pain. But the cry of the plant cannot be heard by the human being. This is due to the inability of the human ear to hear sounds that are not in the audible range, i.e. 20 Hertz to 20,000 Hertz. Anything below and above this range cannot be heard by a human being. A dog can hear up to 40,000 Hertz. Thus there are silent dog whistles that have a frequency of more than 20,000 Hertz and less than 40,000 Hertz. These whistles are only heard by dogs and not by human beings. The dog recognizes the master’s whistle and comes to the master. There was research done by a farmer in U.S.A. who invented an instrument which converted the cry of the plant so that it could be heard by human beings. He was able to realize immediately when the plant itself cried for water. Latest researches show that the plants can even feel happy and sad. They can also cry.
 
 
Once a vegetarian argued his case by saying that plants only have two or three senses while the animals have five senses. Therefore killing a plant is a lesser crime than killing an animal. Suppose someone is born deaf and dumb and has two senses less compared to other human beings. He becomes mature and someone murders him. Would you ask the judge to give the murderer a lesser punishment because he has two senses less? In fact, you would say that he has killed an innocent person, and the judge should give the murderer a greater punishment.
 
 
If every human being was a vegetarian, it would lead to overpopulation of cattle in the world, since their reproduction and multiplication is very swift. God in His Divine Wisdom knows how to maintain the balance of His creation appropriately. No wonder He has permitted us to have the meat of the cattle.
 
 
I do not mind if some people are pure vegetarians. However they should not condemn non-vegetarians as ruthless. In fact if all Indians become non-vegetarians then the present non-vegetarians would be losers since the prices of meat would rise.
 
 
Science tell us that whatever one eats, it has an effect on one’s behavior. Why then people eat non-vegetarian food since eating of animals could make a person violent and ferocious?
 
 
I agree that what a person eats has an effect on his behavior. This is one of the reasons why we should not eat carnivorous animals like lions, tigers, leopards, etc. who are violent and ferocious. The consumption of the meat of such animals would probably make a person violent and ferocious. We should only eat herbivorous animals like goats, cows, sheep, etc.
 
 
Eating of pork can cause no less than seventy different types of diseases. A person can have various helminthes like roundworm, pinworm, hookworm, etc. One of the most dangerous is Taenia Solium, which, in lay man’s terminology, is called tapeworm. It harbors in the intestine and is very long. Its ova, i.e. eggs, enter the blood stream and can reach almost all the organs of the body. If it enters the brain it can cause memory loss. If it enters the heart it can cause heart attack, if it enters the eye it can cause blindness, if it enters the liver it can cause liver damage. It can damage almost all the organs of the body.
 
 
Another dangerous helminthes is Trichura Tichurasis. A common misconception about pork is that if it is cooked well, these ova die. In a research project undertaken in America, it was found that out of twenty-four people suffering from Trichura Tichurasis, twenty two had cooked the pork very well. This indicates that the ova present in the pork do not die under normal cooking temperature.
 
 
Pork has very little muscle building material and contains excess of fat. This fat gets deposited in the vessels and can cause hypertension and heart attack. It is not surprising that over 50% of Americans suffer from hypertension.
 
 
The pig is one of the filthiest animals on earth. It lives and thrives on muck, faeces and dirt. It is the best scavenger I know that God has produced. In villages they don’t have modern toilets and the villagers excrete in the open air. Very often excreta are cleared by pigs.
 
 
Some may argue that in advanced countries like Australia, pigs are bred in very clean and hygienic conditions. Even in these hygienic conditions the pigs are kept together in sties. No matter how hard you try to keep them clean they are filthy by nature. They eat and enjoy their own as well as their neighbour’s excreta. The pig is the most shameless animal on the face of the earth. It is the only animal that invites its friends to have sex with its mate. In America, most people consume pork. Many times after dance parties, they have swapping of wives. If you eat pigs then you behave like pigs. We Indians look upon America to be very advanced and sophisticated. Whatever they do, we follow after a few years.

by **Ramesh** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:22 pm

Bornhyderabadi,
 
 
Please don\'t forget to see my last message, which is a reply to your last message.

by **bornhyderbadi** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 10:51 am

Once again I am repeating the same thing here. I may be commiting a bigger crime being a non-vegetarian (although it is a personal prespective). I might be the biggest sinner. OK, I accept it. But at the same time aren\'t vegetarians sinners too? Smaller or bigger is left to one\'s conscience to decide.

by **bornhyderabadi** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 11:24 am

Hi Radha! I fully agree with your explaination about food habits, jaw/teeth structure, pain/feelings. It was excellent, and I appereciate your efforts in gathering such facts and presenting them in an excellent manner.

by **Andhraite** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 12:14 pm

I appereciate your efforts but, I\'m not in agreement with your points on PIGS. Here, in Singapore, they rate the PIG as the cleanest animail in the world. I was suprised to hear that. Of course, I can understand this Chinese culture. They eat everything. SARS is the best example that we can give. More than 1000 people died b\'cos of their food habits and this SARS is forever. They say it can come back again (it is more active in winter seasons).

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