Is it high time for us to abolish the RESERVATIONS for SC, S

by **Anil** » Sun Jul 20, 2003 8:55 am

I concur with you Atul. I don\'t believe in the policy that one has to learn to bark like a rabid dog to control one. Given a choice, you either avoid them or get them shot or leave them for themselves because they are not going to live longer in any case! And I am not very easily provoked by personal slander. I am very much aware that its only insecurity that makes people to involve in personal slander. But, one thing I do want to state, with people like Ramesh and there attitudes, we will have to face the brunt of reservation for not the next 100 years but 1000 years!

by **Ramesh** » Sun Jul 20, 2003 12:41 pm

Yes,
 we have to face these reservations as long as u aspire for a government job. but now a days there r no government jobs. only private jobs rule. one day there will b only private jobs. companies r not going to provide reservations as it will hamper their business. they r bound to maintain standards; otherwise they will b out of business within a few days. so i think the reservation policy will continue for around a million years. but the effect will b meagre. and its these business magnates that control the politicians in return. so aspiring for reservations in private sector may not b feasible. u can bark or keep quite. its ur wish. but u have to work hard to earn. dont day dream of sitting idle and still earn money. charity jobs will vanish within a few days, as funding will become difficult day by day to feed them from the government pocket, as the private companies r going to rule (even at the cost of government companies).

by **Arch** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:31 pm

Oh, puh-leeze, Anil ! You r the one being most pugnacious and indeed ! u brought in personal slander in your first reply!! and u have the audacity to say that somebody else did ?!! Whoa ! rather arrogant, huh?!! Read with care what u have written and what everybodyelse has, too, including Ramesh\'s replies. He was quite decent and was such a sport too, infact, when he replied to you after ur name calling and stuff. Kudos to u Ramesh ! ( and I agree with you, ramesh, to a large extent that our country may become so, !! and i do not want it so to happen). Anil, a comfortable disposition twds. these discussions will certainly help us to be more receptive to each others\' views which I am sure you want it to be so, and I think u professed the same elsewhere on these boards. So, lets all make up, forget abt\' the fights and .. dosth ?!!

)

by **Andhraite** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:05 pm

Hey Anil, I agree you can write using good phrases... but the reason you posted sucks big time
 
 
Let me say this - as it was said, is rank 1000 = rank 135000... Any reason answer for that? Arey yaar, ask the govt to help SC, ST, BC, Females, Minorities, NCC, handicapped people by giving them all the help that they can financially...
 
 
Arey yaar, there a lot of FC who are suffering even after getting 20000 rank - they still cannot pursue engg. Whereas SCs getting 1.3 lakh rank are happily admitted into engg colleges...
 
 
We all are Indians, and we all are equal. What our ancestors did is the same thing that the govt is doing by having reservation in this way... There will be no complaints from BC, SC, ST, minorities, as there were no complaints from the upper caste people during that casteism period...

by **mrk** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:26 pm

This caste reservation system has been killing the progress of our country since our independence. The Congress ruled nearly 50 yrs with their five year plans, keeping the priority of caste reservation system. Their aim was development but they failed. Intelligent students from our country are going to abroad for the above reason. Due to this, the caste reservation system politicians are gaining their votes and chairs, but the really talented persons are suffering and the country\'s development is getting ruining.

by **Anil** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 10:02 am

When you start a board, be prepared for bouquets and brick-bats. Don’t expect everyone to tow your line. If everyone starts doing a “thana thandhana” it becomes a “harikatha”. Of course, it has entertainment value but I am afraid it just doesn’t serve the purpose. And if anyone is saying anything against, please, for heaven’s sake don’t start making it a game of one-upmanship awaiting an opportune moment to literally pour vitriol! BTW, why this sudden urge to award me with choicest of accusations, pugnacious, audacious, arrogant! My last wound of branding as plagiarists are yet to heal! Actually, you know what, Thank You! Because, these titles are something new to me – never received them before. Hmmm… And lo! Who was accusing whom of slandering? Arch, take a moment and please read the very sportive gentleman Ramesh’s very first sentence. He starts right away with uncalled for personal remarks. As to your proposition of “dosthi” when were we enemies or when did we fight!!??? I for one would never allow the ideals or thoughts I hold to come in between friendship or relationships. Of course, I still stand by every word I said.
 
 And Dear Andhraite, don’t worry too much about the Engineering seats; there are hardly any takers these days. There are plenty available for grabs, it seems! And I again reiterate, lets not be so naïve to give so much importance to the ranks – they don’t always reflect a true worth. Damn with the education system which judges some one solely on a two hours memory test! OK, whether it is 1000 rank or 135000, once they get in, they are on par and have to get the same percentage to pass from there on. There are no reservations now. In fact, I would consider, someone with 135000 passing an engineering exam as more efficient than the one with 1000 rank passing it! It might sound convoluted but think it over.
 
 Coming back to the topic, every one of you is waxing eloquence about the government helping the reserved categories financially other than reservations. How exactly? Give money to the families? What is the guarantee that this money is going to be utilized for what it was meant to be? Tuition-waivers? Now, that will again cause the tongue-wagging and as gentleman Ramesh says, it amounts to living on charities. Admit it guys, whatever way the government helps or attempts to help, its going to cause heart-burn in another section of the society. So, in fact, it’s rather a dicey situation for the government too. In fact, reservations were always a safe haven for the government to shirk its responsibilities. They are the best face-saving equipment for any institution. They can just raise their hands, behold! We are trying to uplift the weaker sections by reservations!
 
 Lastly, whatever ruckus anyone raises, for or against, we ought to learn to live with the reservations. No Government will ever attempt to reduce them leave alone scrapping them totally.

by **Atul** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 8:36 pm

Mr Andhrite, i repeat again, getting a good rank or getting a seat in an engg college is not the sole thing that guarantees a great future, reservations help only in getting a seat into a college but don’t help in getting a good percentage in the engg exams which is what counts once you finish your engg. Anil has already said that many students who excel in eamcet do not continue their performance in engg too. so u just cant say that had you got a good rank in eamcet you would have become another bill gates. thats foolish!! and one more thing i want to say, u cant say that what our ancestors have done to SC/ST, our govt is doing the same thing to us by reservations, it is not at all comparable to the heinous crimes that were committed against them, and u have to agree with that if u are well aware of the atrocities they have undergone. Can I ask u guys who support arch something, can u make a tabular column and write the sufferings that SC/Sts have undergone on one side and the sufferings that u are going thru cause of reservations on the other side and then think about it. If u cant, I will be glad to do that for you.

by **Rajesh** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 9:16 pm

Atul,
 In this age of competition, what matters at last is performance. If u r sick and want some treatment, or want to construct a house, will u go for the best talent/treatment available or will u go for one who is SC/ST. When it comes to ur personal life, u will obviously go for the best talent, though on the outer side u say bla....bla.....and then support reservations. be realistic.

by **Atul** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 11:14 pm

Ofcourse i will go to the best doctor or the best engineer, but what has it got to do with SC/ST???? i am ready to go to the best engg/doctor irrespective of his cast or i just dont care if he has obtained his seat with the help of reservation or not. i realy did not understand what you r trying to say by making SC/ST as a contrary thing to the \"best thing\". one more thing it is not necessary that those who obtain seats by reservation are not the best!!!

by **BeerYanni** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:21 am

Hola everyone.....
 
 Well quite a hot discussion board this one seems to be....
 
 mmmmmm....to begin my pt of view i would say...imagine a young boy in a small facility less village, who works in the fields during the day and studies in the night...quite a filmi situation i understand...but does happen in the underprevileiged part of the country......
 
 now lets say he has reservation and could not get a good rank....I would say he deserves the seat for the amount of commitment he has shown though he could not get a good rank and per se get the seat in an \'open quota\'......
 
 now with the same scenario lets say another boy does the same....but has no reservation...hence he does not get a seat...thats injustice.......
 
 but we have to agree that there are more under-preveleiged sc/st students in the country than the regular students....hence the reservation is in a way more of a justice than an injustice....though the good open category students suffer.....
 
 More than all these things what needs to be observed is the whole purpose of RESERVATIONS..the reason was to help the subdued classes stand on equal footing with the mainstream population......
 
 Then the question arises...
 1) is RESERVATION doing that????
 
 If yes then good...we need to assess the situation and start Reducing the RESERVATIONS so that these subdued classes can join the mainstream.....
 
 If no then....it has to be understood that RESERVATIONS have failed the purpose..hence need to be withdrawn and thought given to other means of accomplishing the task.
 
 Another pt I would like to make is that the financial help (in the form of no fees for the RESERVED classes) given by the govt is a vastly abused system...if you go to any counselling accross this state ( for example)...you will find to ur surprise that the aid goes to few really needy students...more often than not...with the help of fake cert. from a mro...well to do students from the RESERVED classes abuse this system..what needs to be understood by these unscrupulous elements is that the money is for the under-prevelieged ppl of the society.....
 
 But all said and done a critical review of the Reservation system needs to be undertaken at this stage of the countries development......
 
 (btw just because i used and example of a boy does not mean am a mcp, womens lib please go easy on me this time...)

by **Anil** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:19 am

Thanks a ton Rajesh! Your remark \"If u r sick and want some treatment, or want to construct a house, will u go for the best talent/treatment available or will u go for one who is SC/ST\" amply justifies and validates what I have been saying. Be bold to admit it guys, this dangerous thought that professionals belonging to a certain section (or SC/ST - it is no use beating around the bush) are inefficient is so ingrained in us that it inadvertently comes out sometime or other. Actually it is this dangerous attitude which I request to shun. Otherwise, we will never be able to do away with the reservation system. Indirectly, Rajesh you are implying that any blunder (medical or engineering) in the form of a death or a collapsed bridge are due to a SC/ST doctor or engineer. Wow! How preposterous! Hello! Has anyone ever heard of the notorious cousins corruption and nepotism? BTW guys lets start this new precedent: whenever you go to a doctor or any professional, don’t forget to ask them what caste they are from, what rank did they secure in the holy entrance exam? After all we have the right for information, isn’t it! Well, seems like I am back in the good old 18th century!

by **Anil** » Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:22 am

BeerYanni, a very balanced opinion indeed. A healthy change. Keep it up.

by **Andhraite** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 11:17 am

Yaar, I\'m not against SC, ST, BC, minorities, females... I have friends from SC, ST, BC, minorities... but, never came this so called casteism into our minds... I too want all indians to enjoy their lives, but while helping a person to develop, u must see that it does make others suffer...
 
As the saying goes - \"When u r giving a new fresh life to a person which resulted in the death of the another person, then there is no meaning in ur work! \"
 Try to understand - if a FC student from a poor family gets rejected an entry into the Uni... b\'coz he got say 30000 rank ... then he cannot continue his studies in Uni ... and instead he has to go for 3 yr degree ...
 

 
Whereas a student (SC) even if she gets 1,35,000, she is admitted into Uni... tomm if she passes Uni course, she will get a certicate from a good Uni .. whereas the other student, even if he gets 80% in his 3 yr degree ... he only gets an ordinary certificate ... tomm when they both go for job , they will take the SC girl, b\'coz she is from a good Uni.. and holds certificate of that Uni... rather than a FC boy from a ordinary degree college ...
 

 
This is there in a person\'s life, if this reservation system stops him from getting into Uni ... imagine he will have a degree certificate rather a certificate from Uni ... which he deserves ...
 

 
If they are 50000 seats, all the seats have to go to top 50000 ...

by **Andhraite** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 11:20 am

And BTW , Anil in which Universe u r in ... \" there r a lot of seats for grabs , it seems\"
 

 
Hello, get down to the ground, man, what r u saying ... I have experencied the -ve side of this system recently !!!

by **Rajesh.** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 7:12 pm

I think Anil has just reiterated my point. Its talent that matters at the end. So if u have talent, then y cant u prove it in the entrance test itself? Now dont say cock and bull stories like \"though i cant get good rank, i have talent\" or \"those who get good rank may not perform well in the course\".

by **Arch** » Sat Jul 26, 2003 12:36 am

hey, andhraite, what u say is true, for those of us who bear the brunt of the reservations know what it is and where we cry out from for the help that we are seeking for the fwd classes as well! but atul and beeryanni and anil and all the rest of them are saying something to the effect that we shud have a fresh look into the reservations from a diff view point.. which is the same as what we had been saying !! whoa !

by **BeerYanni** » Sat Jul 26, 2003 1:47 am

Arch,Andhraite
 
 I am sure you would have noticed that I have not taken a stance on this issue at all.....what I have attempted to do (not that I would put is a seminal work

......)...is try and put forward the various possible or probable situation which the RESERVATIONS results in......and try to find a common ground from which the society can proceed further...
 
 (Maybe it was a poor attempt.....)
 
 I am absolutyl sure you would find a part of your opinion too reflected in my passage earlier...btw i have gone through the same grind as you have....I reiterate what I wrote...what I say is that a critical examination of the function and success of RESERVATIONS has to be done...it is high time that such an act is undertaken....
 
 the only problem would be that each and every govt is shying away as it would affect thier vote bank...(no matter what the decision is one or the other part of society is going get affected).......
 
 So as long as such selfishness prevails...all we can do is just keep posting msgs on disc boards (I dont know if that is effective too!!!!!!).....
 
 Btw I can understand your bitterness cause I have faced the same problem too.......mmmmmm....it is very painfull...
 
 But an equitable solution (the solution probably may not require any reservations at all but someother way too) needs to be found by which all the communities in this society can progress...thats a very very big task...not at all an easy one..
 
 But it is very important that the RESERVATION issue is addressed....

by **Anil** » Sat Jul 26, 2003 4:37 am

Andhraite and Arch, Let me tell you something. One of the prime reason, I am here in USA is because of the corruption, nepotism and reservation system, in that order. I had three gold medals (including a Gold Medal from Satya Sai Institute, having been adjudged as an outstanding student in the state of AP in the faculties of Medicine, Dental, Agricultural and Veterinary Sciences) and a consistent top academic record. None of that could fetch a job suitable to my caliber. This might all sound so hackneyed (I always thought the films exaggerate) but there isn’t an iota of falsehood in what I state here. I went to an interview at TIFR (Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, Indian Institute of Science - Bangalore), I went up to the final stage. I wasn\'t selected, reason cited was the person should know the local language, i.e. Kannada. OK, fair enough, I thought. But, I came to know the next day, that the selected candidate was a Tamilian. There was a strong Tamil lobby and rest is history. Same with our very own CDFD/CCMB. The positions are “filled up” even before they are advertised. The interviews that are conducted are just a colossal waste of time and money. They don’t do any good to one’s confidence. Then there was another interview, this time at my own University for an Asst Professor position. Again, of all the candidates, I had the highest % of marks, publications and also cleared the National Eligibility Test. There were 9 positions in all. I was confident that even if 50% are given to reserved categories, I will still be comfortable because at least four more would be left for grabs. After all, the University will try to give one to talent, at least to save their skin. But, No, that was not to be. This time, they brought in this regional reservation (All of you are overlooking this reservation policy where in the locals are preferred). And additionally, there was a kamma lobby which did the rest of the damage. So, that was the last straw. In a way, I was rather forced to leave the country. Packed my bags, left for England and a year later landed in USA. After 2 years, I must admit, I am very contented academically & intellectually and was never this happier. You can call it escapism, but I thought that was just being practical. After all, you go or prefer going to places where you and your skills are recognized and appropriately appreciated. I strongly believe in the oft-repeated cliché, Brain-drain is Better than Brain in the Drain!
 
 Anyway, the point is, in spite of all this, I never had any animosity towards the reserved categories nor do I judge them saying they are less talented, etc. etc. Of course, most of you are proclaiming that you hold no animosity towards these sections. But your postings are all suggestive to the contrary. Yes, caste-based reservation policy is doing the damage. I don’t disagree with it. But when compared to the corruption and nepotism, which I call as COVERT RESERVATION, it is negligible. These two parasites are those which are the biggest stumbling blocks in our pursuit to excellence. And, I personally feel, whether I or any one is directly involved in committing an atrocity against a weaker section or not, we as a community and a collective group are responsible and reservations are nothing but a small token to assuage the agony of these hurt sections. We are social animals and are always judged collectively. In other words, in any social atrocities, we are held responsible collectively whether as an individual you have perpetrated a discriminatory act or not. Now, whether these are reservations are implemented properly or not, that’s totally different story. And, we as a nation are not yet ready to scrap the reservation system totally.
 
 BTW Rajesh, please read my posting again carefully. I don’t know what on earth gave you the impression that I was reiterating what you said!!!!

by **Rajesh.** » Sat Jul 26, 2003 1:21 pm

Well,
 Anil after perusing ur previous message, I think I got u wrong. But then, I think everyone got my point. thats what i want. Hope I didnt commit any mistakes under the sun this time.

by b. » Sat Jul 26, 2003 8:18 pm

Anil,
 
 your story is amazing, and I will be at your side.
 all the best wishes and thoughts for you.

by **Arch** » Sat Jul 26, 2003 11:00 pm

I am so sorry that it has happened to you too, Anil, apart from so many of the others that I know of, from both the categories of classes ! .. and which is still happening to those of us that are \'patriotically\' staying back to be of \'some\' service, again from both the categories. That is what I do not want our country to undergo, Anil !! The brain drain. You see ? Our country has lost another person like you !! You would have made such a wonderful whatever you chose to be doing in India, right? there are so many of us w/ similar ardor that are all over the world that \'I\' know of, who wud have made India one of the richest countries in its profound-est sense of its term. One of the reasons is reservations, for whatever caste it is. Yes, I am also aware of the khamma/kapu/reddi/tamilian/kannadiga/local/northindian/jain/sindhi/etc.. (that is the corruption aspect of evil that is existing in our country, but this board is about reservations, not the corruption, right?) and again I am aware of what the father of this relative of mine went through, too. My family again, is, as I said, a multi-cultural, multi-caste based joint unit consisting of members working in large sections of services w/in and outside of India. Trust me, I am aware of the pain. oh, my! am I aware or what! Its a CRY, alright, of deep anguish and the fight against it ( esentially the injustice) and coming out of it w/ such fervor, intact and stronger.

by **Anil** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:55 am

Thanks a lot B and Arch. As for the patriotic aspects, well I am no less than anyone who is physically staying back in India. I intend to return to India. But just not yet. I am also aware that everyone says the same but no one returns. But, NO, I mean it sincerely. Well, on that happy note, have a nice weekend guys. I guess, we have said quite enough on this issue unless someone approaches it from a different angle...

by **bornhyderabadi** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:46 pm

I read most of postings about this issue, I agree with some and disagree with others. \"Reservations\" is surely a hot topic and its not surpring it gets so much attention.This primarly is because almost everyone from the 2-3 generation of free India must have some experiences(bitter and sweet) relating to this.
 I admire Mr.Ambedkar for his vision and knowledge, the reservation policy he implemented were appropriate at that time and day, and even he had written that the policy be revisited after 10-15 years, which unfortunately did not happen. In the mean while the ever power hungry politicians found it a safe \"vote bank\" and encashed it time and again.
 Now after enjoying this easy shortcut method of geting into power, our politicians find it difficult to do away with it, be it any party.
 I personally feel reservations should be abolished at all levels, everybody needs to compete at the same level with same standards, if a economically backward person is successful in getting thro the entry level, he/she must be given concession/free education that\'s all.
 No jobs must be reserved be it any kind of reservations like regional/caste/religion.... as long as you are legally eligible to work, that should what matter.

by **Rajesh** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 9:38 am

I really appreciate bornhyderabadi\'s idea. This is basically a vote bank policy. Apart from that, it has nothing to do with the welfare of people. After all what kind of \"reservations\" are you providing for a beggar? Do you think he can avail these? I know even those who are against this idea are aware that this is not the right policy. But as everyone knows, almost all are selfish in this era. So whatever is beneficial for a particular section of the society will be appreciated by them, no matter whether there\'s any basis for such policy or the consequences.

by **Andhraite** » Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:25 pm

Hey Anil, if you think that I\'m contradicting my post myself by saying that I\'m not against other castes...
 
 
I feel that I\'m really not against them. I gave an example that \'some SC girl got a rank of 1.3 lakh\', By that I don\'t mean that other students from the same caste are also as bad as that girl. There\'s nothing that an SC cannot top the State etc. Whoever is good in his/her work can get to the top, irrespective of their caste(s)...
 

 
I didn\'t degrade anyone. Think about my opinion. I feel that these changes are necessary in our reservation system.
 
1) Reservation should be based on financial backgrounds, and not on caste...
 
2) Instead of giving some percentage of quota, I feel that the government has to help the eligible with financal support... % quota is injustice because a student who gets more marks can\'t make it, while those with lesser marks can make it because of their caste...
 

 
Any changes/suggestions to my opinion???

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