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Terrorism is a battle within the Muslim community

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Terrorism is a battle within the Muslim community

by Mayavi Morpheus » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:49 am

Yesterday, I posted the following in the Israel-Hezb thread:



I have seen many muslim leaders condemning terrorrist actions in public, but what does it achieve? Nothing! Its political stunt at best, like pakistan condemning the bomb blasts which it itself sponsored. What I want to see is the muslim community reforming itself from within chucking out the bad elements in the process. When you know that one among you is upto something bad, do not look the otherway. Take action. The onus lies solely on the muslim community.


Today Indian Express published an Op-ed by an IPS officer about the same thing.

Because terrorism is inimical to the existence of the community itself, it becomes obligatory for every Muslim to work actively to defeat it
Asif Jalal


Till yesterday the debate was why and how Indian Muslims are free from the contagious effect of the so-called jehad sweeping the Islamic world, having no concern, barring some in Kashmir, with the business of Al Qaeda, the ISI and terrorism. Indeed, in 2003 security expert B Raman wrote, ‘‘The overwhelming majority of Indian Muslims are loyal, law-abiding citizens. They have not allowed their anger against the Indian government or the Hindus for any reason to drive them into the arms of terrorist organisations. India has the most modern, peaceful and forward-looking Muslim community in the world.’’

More recently, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh boasted that not even a single Indian Muslim is on the rolls of Al Qaeda. For this relative freedom of Muslims from the jehad ideology we credited our democratic system, the Sufi ethos of Indian Islam and a culture that discouraged any kind of extremism in thought and action.

After a series of blasts ripping through different cities of India and its religious places, however, it is now clear that Indian Muslim youths, however small in number, are working in India as foot-soldiers of international terrorist organizations. They still may not be fighting with the ranks of Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, or in Iraq or Palestine, but doubtless some of them are colluding with the global jehadis in the latter’s mission to weaken and destabilise India.

It is estimated, for example, that at least 100 people participated in the execution of the July 11 Mumbai blasts. Without committed local Muslim support such a despicable act would not have been possible. Intelligence experts say that at least 25 Muslim organizations are working on Indian soil to breed alienation among the Indian Muslim youths and to suck them into the global whirl of jehad. And the response of the Muslim masses to these organizations is not that of complete apathy.

The collusion of local Muslims with the global jehadi enlarges the scope of the battle against terrorism. Because it is not just inimical to the existence of Indian state, and its stability, but also against the Muslim community itself, it becomes obligatory for every Muslim also to work actively to defeat this offensive. In a way, it is doubly perilous for the Muslims of India: first, as common citizens vulnerable to the risk of terrorist attacks and second, as a supposed culpable minority susceptible to majority communal backlash, prejudices, suspicion and harassment by security agencies. Because it is more sinister to the Muslim interest they will have to contribute at two levels, as citizens of India and as fellow community members, located at a vantage point, to understand the psychology and motive of terrorists and to subvert their operations.

Till now the response of the Muslim intelligentsia, activists and the community in general to this challenge has been absolutely lukewarm to say the least. After every act of terrorism, they chose to, at most, issue a muted condemnation and express disapproval from their safe confines. When the ideology of terrorism has invaded Muslim homes and seminaries, and it is drawing legitimacy from the Islamic faith, such a response from the community is by no account adequate.

The Muslim community must take the extremists’ act more seriously because the consequences of terrorism on Indian soil, in a multi-religious society, are enormous. An act of terrorism, even one perpetrated by Kashmiri militants or the ISI, throws peace and communal harmony out of gear across the country. It makes a Muslim’s Indian-ness less credible in the eyes of many. A situation where boys born and brought up in UP and Bihar plant explosives in temples and trains would certainly script a terrible destiny for over 140 million Indian Muslims.

To eradicate this ideology, the Muslims need to make serious, perceptible and relentless efforts. Counter-terrorism requires a systematic plan of action to insulate the general youth and de-toxicate those infected with the ideology. The thinking Muslims will have to go out of the comforts of homes and offices and work in gullis, seminaries, mosques and other public places to acquaint common Muslims of the consequences of terrorist acts for the community. For every one SIMI-like organisation perverting the minds of youths, they will have to raise 10 organisations alerting Muslims to the dangers of such an ideology. They will have to espouse the duty which the Koran assigns to every Muslim: ‘‘You are the best community that has ever been brought into being for the sake of mankind. You enjoin what is right and fair and you forbid what is wrong and unfair (3:110)’’.

Terrorism is also a battle within the Muslim community; a battle between the life instinct of the many and the death wish of a handful of lunatics. A Muslim has reason to fight and win this battle for the good of many of their brethrens, besides for the larger interest of India.

(The writer, an IPS officer, is SP, Lahaul-Spiti)





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by tfb » Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:24 am

I think the title should have been "Terrorism a battle for the Muslim community", becuase the Muslim community in general has been the major casuality of the terrorist activities , that its so obvious now that every other terrorist activity commited is solely intended to make the mulims and the pepetrators of the crime and its so inconsequential for the interests of the Muslim community that it cannot be attributed at all to them.



So yes I think terrorism should be rooted out , and status quo in the approach to fight terrorism where there is a pattern to target Muslims cannot be maintained, and all the anti social and terrorist elements should be probed to get to the bottom of the truth.
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by Mayavi Morpheus » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:12 am

tfb wrote:I think the title should have been "Terrorism a battle for the Muslim community", becuase the Muslim community in general has been the major casuality of the terrorist activities

Correct. The muslim community has been a casuality of terrorrist activities committed by some of their own. So it makes sensefor them to come out in the open against terrorrism.

So yes I think terrorism should be rooted out , and status quo in the approach to fight terrorism where there is a pattern to target Muslims cannot be maintained, and all the anti social and terrorist elements should be probed to get to the bottom of the truth.




Who will probe it? Any probe that concludes that muslims are the terrorrists is labelled as hindu ploy. Should we have a muslim only investigative agencies? May be, that would be a good idea. The muslim community should set up their own detective agencies to find out the truth if thats what convinces them. Whatever it is, the first step is to stop living in denial. As long as the muslim community lives in a world of denial showing syptoms of victimhood, there cannot be a positive change. More terrorrists will be produced by the community. That is what is the essence of the article.
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by V » Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:06 pm

I think the title should have been "Terrorism a battle for the Muslim community", becuase the Muslim community in general has been the major casuality of the terrorist activities




Please clarify just one doubt here.............. when you say "Muslim community in general has been the major casuality of the terrorist activities"........... who are you pointing out as the terrorists(Name Them) ???
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by tfb » Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:08 pm

Mayavi Morpheus wrote:Who will probe it? Any probe that concludes that muslims are the terrorrists is labelled as hindu ploy. Should we have a muslim only investigative agencies?


I believe atheists would do a better job.

Mayavi Morpheus wrote:May be, that would be a good idea. The muslim community should set up their own detective agencies to find out the truth if thats what convinces them. Whatever it is, the first step is to stop living in denial. As long as the muslim community lives in a world of denial showing syptoms of victimhood, there cannot be a positive change. More terrorrists will be produced by the community. That is what is the essence of the article.




Denial is understandable as the reasons its being attributed to the Muslim community is beyond the comprehension of the Muslim community , becuase neither the reasons nor the actions get along with the religious belief of the Muslim community.



On the other hand we have these terrorist activities further strengthening the Hindutva forces in India , which need to surge back to national prominence after a recurring lull.



Therefore it can be concluded that neither ideologically nor practically these incidents be attributed to the Muslim community , on the other hand the Hindutva forces have more than a reason or two for carrying out such terrorist acivities.
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by Arch » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:42 pm

Chan Akya of Asia Times says India will not take part in WW III, when it happens, against the Muslim Fundamentalists of the world, because of the Muslim Fundamentalists in India.



http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/HG25Aa02.html

PART 1: World War III - what, me worry?
By Chan Akya

Sam Huntington's The Clash of Civilizations is now being made operational in the Middle East, thanks to the neo-conservatives' vision of the West triumphing over Islam. The end game that most right-wing observers look to now is a conflagration that sees the West take on Islam, supported by a coalition of willing allies in Africa and Asia. Meanwhile, Islam counts on its army of the faithful to lend support.

Be that as it may, I believe that both the West and Islam overestimate their hold on, if not their importance to, the Chinese and Hindu civilizations. The prospect of World War III, rather than



forcing them to choose sides, is more likely to cause policy paralysis, despite the fact that both India and China stand to benefit from the conflagration. While it is in their interest to cause an outright war between the two sides, they are more likely to engage in navel-gazing.

Neither the West nor Islam has covered itself with glory as far as China and India are concerned. While the Chinese would consider the West as hurting it more particularly in the past 100 years, for India the balance tilts more against Islam. This observation is more pertinent when seeing the eventual place the two societies envisage for themselves in the world. It is interesting to note that while their philosophies are different, the basic outcome has been the same, namely that both China and India were splendidly isolated from the rest of the world in the heyday of their civilizations. There is little moral justification for either country to support the West or Islam.

Early Indian and Chinese explorers found little to occupy them in their journeys outside of their countries. The contact between Chinese and Indian cultures led to the export of Buddhism from India. In a study of Buddhism's reach, we can gauge how the two cultures would react to a changing world.

The India that Prince Gautam was born into was dominated by the Hindu system, albeit one run by the principles of Manu, rather than the more egalitarian Vedic culture. The doctrine of Manu was a product of the Aryan conquest of the ancient peoples of India, including the Dravidians in the south of the country. In this world, with its multifaceted rituals and barbaric animal sacrifices, the arrival of Buddhism portended substantial changes. The language of the ruling classes, Sanskrit, was quickly subsumed by the language of Buddhism, Pali.

As the first great emperor of India, Ashok, converted to Buddhism, ancient Hindu culture suffered its first real shock in 1,000 years. The response was revolutionary more than evolutionary, with the country's ruling classes quickly removing public practices forbidden in Buddhism, such as animal sacrifices. The kinder, gentler culture that arose from this period did not have to wait long for its turn to revenge. The ascetic principles of Buddhism were simply incompatible with running a large country that was already a melting point for various races. This failure to impose discipline was to cost Ashok's followers dearly, ending the dynasty barely 100 years after his death.

Still, the damage to Hindu culture was done. With a weaker resolve at the center, regional kingdoms became more powerful, in a development that was not to reverse for 1,000 years. That left the individual kingdoms more vulnerable to the onslaught of a new group of invaders from the West, namely Islam. As smaller kingdoms quickly crumbled against the onslaught of Islam, Hindus took refuge behind the apparently cosmetic differences. They were also helped by the historical fact that while Islam unites in times of defeat, victory is often fatal for Muslims.

Thus it is that from the 9th through the 13th centuries Islamic conquerors of northern Indian states usually found themselves under siege from their co-religionists. The most famous battle of all during the period featured the Mughal leader Babur against a Muslim ruler, Ibrahim Lodi, on the other side of Panipat. Furthermore, to pay for the various battles, Muslim rulers had to impose various taxes on their populations. I believe this was the main reason for their lack of enthusiasm in converting the Hindu population to Islam. The second reason was of course the ultimate in scorched-earth policies that history has ever known, namely the mass incidents of sati (female suicides) in kingdoms that Muslims conquered. In any event, Islam left alive a culture that would in future pose a great threat.

Buddhism also weakened the patriarchal Chinese culture, but did provide a benefit in that it acted to homogenize cultural practices across the country. Thus people in southern China could relate to their northern cousins more than previously was possible, because of the role of Buddhist monasteries and temples. The common schools for monks, in Tibet and other places, provided China with its first glimpse of mystic as against practical religion.

The key development in China's history, though, was under the Emperor Qin, who unified the country through substantial warfare combined with a common language. The resulting monolith of an empire was able to shrug off the Muslim warlords from Central Asia with relative ease, particularly when compared with the problems that a splintered India down south faced. For this reason, Islam generally treated China and its culture with grudging respect, quite unlike its view of other cultures.

This state of affairs remained for a long time, until the West gained enough technical mastery of weapons first developed by China to take on the Chinese empire. It is at this point that China's relative insularity was to go against the country - a failure to observe and learn from the decline of Hindu civilization against Islam. The Western conquest of China followed a pattern similar to that of India's decline, namely gradual wars in the periphery that weakened central authority, finally culminating in an assault across the country.

There are today not enough Christians or Muslims in China to push the country in the direction of supporting either the West or Islam in any global conflagration. However, a resurgent West poses more of a threat to China's patriarchal culture, which is not very different from the centralized authority-driven culture of Islam. Given that, it is more likely that China would tilt toward supporting Islam, as its weapons-proliferation efforts over the past few years have shown.

The missile used by Hezbollah this month to sink an Israeli ship was an Iranian variant of a Chinese Silkworm; similar ancestries can be established for many of the medium- and long-range weapons currently in the hands of Islamic tyrants. It is also noteworthy that the only working nuclear weapons in the Islamic world belong to Pakistan, and are almost entirely reverse-engineered from actual Chinese bombs. This leads me to conclude that an escalation of the conflict in the Middle East would eventually necessitate the West to demand adequate support from China, failing which the country itself could become a target. The waxworks of Beijing are likely to grant enough concessions to the West to avoid being attacked, and then lie in wait for their revenge.

The Indian situation is more precarious. While much of the country's right-wing intelligentsia would push it to war against Islam, there is enough of a fifth column in place to thwart the country's historic quest for vengeance. India's Muslims number more than any other country's in the world with the exception of Indonesia. Add to these the populations of both Pakistan and Bangladesh, and Indian military might is in essence boxed in.

Neither the Indian air force nor the army can offer much assistance to the West. The only aspect of Indian military that the West may benefit from is also its least developed one, namely the Indian navy. I do not see the likelihood of India playing any role in a direct confrontation between Islam and the West, and therefore it is more likely that it sits on the sidelines waiting for the West to do its job.


PART 2
China and India in World War III
By Chan Akya

I wrote in Part 1 (World War III - what, me worry?, July 25) on the subject of how China and India would fail to react in the event that the West and Islam proceed toward a full conflagration, even if such a conflict would be a heaven-sent opportunity for both powers to fully realize their own strategic objectives. While current events dictate an eventual conflict, a number of factors will have to fall in place before World War III does break out. The roles for North Korea, Taiwan and Pakistan are falling into place in this conflict, and it is using these cards that the West and Islam can play the two ancient civilizations.

I predict that future generations of Indians and Chinese will literally worship George W Bush and Osama bin Laden for having pushed



the West into a disastrous conflict with Islam. An escalation of terrorist attacks against Christian and Jewish powers has already caused the moral compass to tilt against Islam. It appears only a matter of time before either the United States or Israel uses weapons of mass destruction against an Islamic power, albeit for preemptive rather than offensive purposes.

That Iranian nuclear establishments will be bombed in the next few months is by now a foregone conclusion. If the US decides to use conventional but lethal force, rather than risk allowing Israeli bombing of Iranian facilities, the moral compass shifts back in favor of Islam.

President Bush has failed to finish the job with bin Laden, leaving the mess for someone else to handle - eerily echoing the same failure of his father to depose Saddam Hussein, which necessitated his current misadventure in Iraq.

Assuming that the US does attack Iranian facilities, how does the progress to an all-out war between Islam and the West take place?

We have to recognize that no established Islamic power has the ability to strike outside of its immediate border. The armed forces of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Iran have no capacity to inflict meaningful harm on the West. The sole exception is Pakistan, which is why the global terrorist brotherhood will probably focus more of its attention on this country than any other in the next few months.

The key strategic aim here would be to secure a working nuclear weapon. Sensing an opportunity to unite against greater enemies, we have seen in July cooperation not only between Hamas and Hezbollah, but also potentially with bin Laden, if the recent train bomb attacks that killed almost 200 in India were orchestrated by al-Qaeda as is being claimed.

It appears more than a coincidence that both Israel and India were attacked at the same time - I expect that moves to drag Pakistan into outright war against the West are already under way.

Perverse logic
Pakistan is ruled by President General Pervez Musharraf, who is focused almost exclusively on his own survival. Casting his tent with the West after September 11, 2001, was a stroke of genius that immediately opened up Western coffers that had been unavailable since the country's nuclear tests in 1998.

Still, keeping local militants on his side has involved the obvious barter of border peace with India, in other words by leaving the Kashmir issue unresolved. This serves as a rallying call for the faithful, and to the extent that disaffected youth plan carnage in India rather than in Karachi, the general is left with breathing room. In return for letting them operate, it appears the terrorists promised to keep a relatively low profile until the end of this year - that is, after the US elections in November.

However, I believe that the plan has backfired. Just as Syria failed to show much control over Hezbollah, Pakistan has lost control of its militants, who now appear to work directly with al-Qaeda command structures. The turning point could well have been the Pakistani army attacks in the Pashtun areas that were undertaken to keep the US happy in its "war on terror".

Disenchanted that the Pakistani army could kill its own creations, Kashmiri militants appear to have bypassed the army, going straight to the Taliban and perhaps even to bin Laden. This explains the attacks on both Srinagar (grenade explosions that killed nine) and Mumbai on the same day, a move that seems to have caught even the Pakistani army by surprise, if its state of readiness in the days preceding the attacks is any indication.

A continuation of such attacks on Indian targets will embarrass the Pakistani army, while any ham-fisted attempts to collar the terrorists will likely backfire in a similar way the conflict in Waziristan did. (The conflict began in 2004 when the Pakistani army began its search for al-Qaeda in the mountainous Waziristan tribal areas.)

The Pakistani army will find soon that the costs of keeping Musharraf in power outweigh the benefits, particularly if no arms supplies materialize from the US. At that juncture, and disguised as a coup, there is every chance that a nuclear weapon will go missing. This weapon will be to World War III what Serbian nationalist Gavrilo Princip was to World War I.

China can't, India won't
Rather than India, I believe the West would turn to China if this eventuality were to arise. The chief reason, as I wrote before, is that India's 150 million Muslims in essence rule out any chance of direct Indian involvement in the battle.

China, on the other hand, has a big role to play, because of its influence on both Pakistan (which has weapons of mass destruction) and North Korea (which has the projectiles capable of delivering them). While many commentators have joked about the accuracy of North Korean missiles, claiming for example that the safest place in the world is the target, such humor falls flat if the projectile is armed with a nuclear weapon.

Many Pakistani generals study and train in China, and the country has provided key technologies. If China were to prove unwilling to cooperate, as it finds more in common with Islam than the West, then the US and Europe are likely to use the Taiwan card. No Chinese leader can survive Taiwanese independence; the event might well prove catastrophic for the Chinese Communist Party itself. Under the circumstances, its desire to prevent a split would push China to support the West, much as it might prefer to do the opposite.

What can China actually do, though, if nuclear weapons go missing in Pakistan? Beyond the initial stage of assessing responsibility, China can also pinpoint other locations for safeguarding - this is the reason that I do not expect the entire nuclear arsenal of Pakistan to fall into the hands of the Islamist powers.

Since the 1998 Pakistani nuclear tests in 1998 showed that the weapons had Chinese origins, Beijing has been constantly pressured to maintain a close watch on locations and access. Thus it becomes imperative for the West to use China as a preventive measure rather than a cure.

Enough pressure on China combined with obdurate Pakistani leadership may push Chinese confrontation against Pakistan, starting with an abrogation of the friendship treaty. That leaves China free to pretend that a conflict involving Pakistan does not necessarily extend to itself. The People's Liberation Army has sufficient strike power, but that's only so long as the enemy drives in through the Gobi Desert.

I repeat that despite all the historical reasons that India's right wing would extend, there is no chance of the country participating in a war between the West and Islam. Failing to find an ally that will directly occupy Pakistan and Iran, the West will be left with no alternative but to attempt this on its own, with the US, Russia and the United Kingdom providing a bulk of the manpower.

The outcome will be a sufficient weakening of both the West and Islamic power over the following 20 years.
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by Cragg » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:39 pm

Arch wrote:Chan Akya of Asia Times says India will not take part in WW III, when it happens, against the Muslim Fundamentalists of the world, because of the Muslim Fundamentalists in India.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/HG25Aa02.html

PART 1: World War III - what, me worry?
By Chan Akya

Sam Huntington's The Clash of Civilizations is now being made operational in the Middle East, thanks to the neo-conservatives' vision of the West triumphing over Islam. The end game that most right-wing observers look to now is a conflagration that sees the West take on Islam, supported by a coalition of willing allies in Africa and Asia. Meanwhile, Islam counts on its army of the faithful to lend support.

Be that as it may, I believe that both the West and Islam overestimate their hold on, if not their importance to, the Chinese and Hindu civilizations. The prospect of World War III, rather than



forcing them to choose sides, is more likely to cause policy paralysis, despite the fact that both India and China stand to benefit from the conflagration. While it is in their interest to cause an outright war between the two sides, they are more likely to engage in navel-gazing.

Neither the West nor Islam has covered itself with glory as far as China and India are concerned. While the Chinese would consider the West as hurting it more particularly in the past 100 years, for India the balance tilts more against Islam. This observation is more pertinent when seeing the eventual place the two societies envisage for themselves in the world. It is interesting to note that while their philosophies are different, the basic outcome has been the same, namely that both China and India were splendidly isolated from the rest of the world in the heyday of their civilizations. There is little moral justification for either country to support the West or Islam.

Early Indian and Chinese explorers found little to occupy them in their journeys outside of their countries. The contact between Chinese and Indian cultures led to the export of Buddhism from India. In a study of Buddhism's reach, we can gauge how the two cultures would react to a changing world.

The India that Prince Gautam was born into was dominated by the Hindu system, albeit one run by the principles of Manu, rather than the more egalitarian Vedic culture. The doctrine of Manu was a product of the Aryan conquest of the ancient peoples of India, including the Dravidians in the south of the country. In this world, with its multifaceted rituals and barbaric animal sacrifices, the arrival of Buddhism portended substantial changes. The language of the ruling classes, Sanskrit, was quickly subsumed by the language of Buddhism, Pali.

As the first great emperor of India, Ashok, converted to Buddhism, ancient Hindu culture suffered its first real shock in 1,000 years. The response was revolutionary more than evolutionary, with the country's ruling classes quickly removing public practices forbidden in Buddhism, such as animal sacrifices. The kinder, gentler culture that arose from this period did not have to wait long for its turn to revenge. The ascetic principles of Buddhism were simply incompatible with running a large country that was already a melting point for various races. This failure to impose discipline was to cost Ashok's followers dearly, ending the dynasty barely 100 years after his death.

Still, the damage to Hindu culture was done. With a weaker resolve at the center, regional kingdoms became more powerful, in a development that was not to reverse for 1,000 years. That left the individual kingdoms more vulnerable to the onslaught of a new group of invaders from the West, namely Islam. As smaller kingdoms quickly crumbled against the onslaught of Islam, Hindus took refuge behind the apparently cosmetic differences. They were also helped by the historical fact that while Islam unites in times of defeat, victory is often fatal for Muslims.

Thus it is that from the 9th through the 13th centuries Islamic conquerors of northern Indian states usually found themselves under siege from their co-religionists. The most famous battle of all during the period featured the Mughal leader Babur against a Muslim ruler, Ibrahim Lodi, on the other side of Panipat. Furthermore, to pay for the various battles, Muslim rulers had to impose various taxes on their populations. I believe this was the main reason for their lack of enthusiasm in converting the Hindu population to Islam. The second reason was of course the ultimate in scorched-earth policies that history has ever known, namely the mass incidents of sati (female suicides) in kingdoms that Muslims conquered. In any event, Islam left alive a culture that would in future pose a great threat.

Buddhism also weakened the patriarchal Chinese culture, but did provide a benefit in that it acted to homogenize cultural practices across the country. Thus people in southern China could relate to their northern cousins more than previously was possible, because of the role of Buddhist monasteries and temples. The common schools for monks, in Tibet and other places, provided China with its first glimpse of mystic as against practical religion.

The key development in China's history, though, was under the Emperor Qin, who unified the country through substantial warfare combined with a common language. The resulting monolith of an empire was able to shrug off the Muslim warlords from Central Asia with relative ease, particularly when compared with the problems that a splintered India down south faced. For this reason, Islam generally treated China and its culture with grudging respect, quite unlike its view of other cultures.

This state of affairs remained for a long time, until the West gained enough technical mastery of weapons first developed by China to take on the Chinese empire. It is at this point that China's relative insularity was to go against the country - a failure to observe and learn from the decline of Hindu civilization against Islam. The Western conquest of China followed a pattern similar to that of India's decline, namely gradual wars in the periphery that weakened central authority, finally culminating in an assault across the country.

There are today not enough Christians or Muslims in China to push the country in the direction of supporting either the West or Islam in any global conflagration. However, a resurgent West poses more of a threat to China's patriarchal culture, which is not very different from the centralized authority-driven culture of Islam. Given that, it is more likely that China would tilt toward supporting Islam, as its weapons-proliferation efforts over the past few years have shown.

The missile used by Hezbollah this month to sink an Israeli ship was an Iranian variant of a Chinese Silkworm; similar ancestries can be established for many of the medium- and long-range weapons currently in the hands of Islamic tyrants. It is also noteworthy that the only working nuclear weapons in the Islamic world belong to Pakistan, and are almost entirely reverse-engineered from actual Chinese bombs. This leads me to conclude that an escalation of the conflict in the Middle East would eventually necessitate the West to demand adequate support from China, failing which the country itself could become a target. The waxworks of Beijing are likely to grant enough concessions to the West to avoid being attacked, and then lie in wait for their revenge.

The Indian situation is more precarious. While much of the country's right-wing intelligentsia would push it to war against Islam, there is enough of a fifth column in place to thwart the country's historic quest for vengeance. India's Muslims number more than any other country's in the world with the exception of Indonesia. Add to these the populations of both Pakistan and Bangladesh, and Indian military might is in essence boxed in.

Neither the Indian air force nor the army can offer much assistance to the West. The only aspect of Indian military that the West may benefit from is also its least developed one, namely the Indian navy. I do not see the likelihood of India playing any role in a direct confrontation between Islam and the West, and therefore it is more likely that it sits on the sidelines waiting for the West to do its job.


PART 2
China and India in World War III
By Chan Akya

I wrote in Part 1 (World War III - what, me worry?, July 25) on the subject of how China and India would fail to react in the event that the West and Islam proceed toward a full conflagration, even if such a conflict would be a heaven-sent opportunity for both powers to fully realize their own strategic objectives. While current events dictate an eventual conflict, a number of factors will have to fall in place before World War III does break out. The roles for North Korea, Taiwan and Pakistan are falling into place in this conflict, and it is using these cards that the West and Islam can play the two ancient civilizations.

I predict that future generations of Indians and Chinese will literally worship George W Bush and Osama bin Laden for having pushed



the West into a disastrous conflict with Islam. An escalation of terrorist attacks against Christian and Jewish powers has already caused the moral compass to tilt against Islam. It appears only a matter of time before either the United States or Israel uses weapons of mass destruction against an Islamic power, albeit for preemptive rather than offensive purposes.

That Iranian nuclear establishments will be bombed in the next few months is by now a foregone conclusion. If the US decides to use conventional but lethal force, rather than risk allowing Israeli bombing of Iranian facilities, the moral compass shifts back in favor of Islam.

President Bush has failed to finish the job with bin Laden, leaving the mess for someone else to handle - eerily echoing the same failure of his father to depose Saddam Hussein, which necessitated his current misadventure in Iraq.

Assuming that the US does attack Iranian facilities, how does the progress to an all-out war between Islam and the West take place?

We have to recognize that no established Islamic power has the ability to strike outside of its immediate border. The armed forces of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria and Iran have no capacity to inflict meaningful harm on the West. The sole exception is Pakistan, which is why the global terrorist brotherhood will probably focus more of its attention on this country than any other in the next few months.

The key strategic aim here would be to secure a working nuclear weapon. Sensing an opportunity to unite against greater enemies, we have seen in July cooperation not only between Hamas and Hezbollah, but also potentially with bin Laden, if the recent train bomb attacks that killed almost 200 in India were orchestrated by al-Qaeda as is being claimed.

It appears more than a coincidence that both Israel and India were attacked at the same time - I expect that moves to drag Pakistan into outright war against the West are already under way.

Perverse logic
Pakistan is ruled by President General Pervez Musharraf, who is focused almost exclusively on his own survival. Casting his tent with the West after September 11, 2001, was a stroke of genius that immediately opened up Western coffers that had been unavailable since the country's nuclear tests in 1998.

Still, keeping local militants on his side has involved the obvious barter of border peace with India, in other words by leaving the Kashmir issue unresolved. This serves as a rallying call for the faithful, and to the extent that disaffected youth plan carnage in India rather than in Karachi, the general is left with breathing room. In return for letting them operate, it appears the terrorists promised to keep a relatively low profile until the end of this year - that is, after the US elections in November.

However, I believe that the plan has backfired. Just as Syria failed to show much control over Hezbollah, Pakistan has lost control of its militants, who now appear to work directly with al-Qaeda command structures. The turning point could well have been the Pakistani army attacks in the Pashtun areas that were undertaken to keep the US happy in its "war on terror".

Disenchanted that the Pakistani army could kill its own creations, Kashmiri militants appear to have bypassed the army, going straight to the Taliban and perhaps even to bin Laden. This explains the attacks on both Srinagar (grenade explosions that killed nine) and Mumbai on the same day, a move that seems to have caught even the Pakistani army by surprise, if its state of readiness in the days preceding the attacks is any indication.

A continuation of such attacks on Indian targets will embarrass the Pakistani army, while any ham-fisted attempts to collar the terrorists will likely backfire in a similar way the conflict in Waziristan did. (The conflict began in 2004 when the Pakistani army began its search for al-Qaeda in the mountainous Waziristan tribal areas.)

The Pakistani army will find soon that the costs of keeping Musharraf in power outweigh the benefits, particularly if no arms supplies materialize from the US. At that juncture, and disguised as a coup, there is every chance that a nuclear weapon will go missing. This weapon will be to World War III what Serbian nationalist Gavrilo Princip was to World War I.

China can't, India won't
Rather than India, I believe the West would turn to China if this eventuality were to arise. The chief reason, as I wrote before, is that India's 150 million Muslims in essence rule out any chance of direct Indian involvement in the battle.

China, on the other hand, has a big role to play, because of its influence on both Pakistan (which has weapons of mass destruction) and North Korea (which has the projectiles capable of delivering them). While many commentators have joked about the accuracy of North Korean missiles, claiming for example that the safest place in the world is the target, such humor falls flat if the projectile is armed with a nuclear weapon.

Many Pakistani generals study and train in China, and the country has provided key technologies. If China were to prove unwilling to cooperate, as it finds more in common with Islam than the West, then the US and Europe are likely to use the Taiwan card. No Chinese leader can survive Taiwanese independence; the event might well prove catastrophic for the Chinese Communist Party itself. Under the circumstances, its desire to prevent a split would push China to support the West, much as it might prefer to do the opposite.

What can China actually do, though, if nuclear weapons go missing in Pakistan? Beyond the initial stage of assessing responsibility, China can also pinpoint other locations for safeguarding - this is the reason that I do not expect the entire nuclear arsenal of Pakistan to fall into the hands of the Islamist powers.

Since the 1998 Pakistani nuclear tests in 1998 showed that the weapons had Chinese origins, Beijing has been constantly pressured to maintain a close watch on locations and access. Thus it becomes imperative for the West to use China as a preventive measure rather than a cure.

Enough pressure on China combined with obdurate Pakistani leadership may push Chinese confrontation against Pakistan, starting with an abrogation of the friendship treaty. That leaves China free to pretend that a conflict involving Pakistan does not necessarily extend to itself. The People's Liberation Army has sufficient strike power, but that's only so long as the enemy drives in through the Gobi Desert.

I repeat that despite all the historical reasons that India's right wing would extend, there is no chance of the country participating in a war between the West and Islam. Failing to find an ally that will directly occupy Pakistan and Iran, the West will be left with no alternative but to attempt this on its own, with the US, Russia and the United Kingdom providing a bulk of the manpower.

The outcome will be a sufficient weakening of both the West and Islamic power over the following 20 years.




Blind beliefs in mythology . ANd now in astrology or predictions.



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Re: Terrorism is a battle within the Muslim community

by Arch » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:29 pm

Mayavi Morpheus wrote:Yesterday, I posted the following in the Israel-Hezb thread:

I have seen many muslim leaders condemning terrorrist actions in public, but what does it achieve? Nothing! Its political stunt at best, like pakistan condemning the bomb blasts which it itself sponsored. What I want to see is the muslim community reforming itself from within chucking out the bad elements in the process. When you know that one among you is upto something bad, do not look the otherway. Take action. The onus lies solely on the muslim community.




The 'first step' towards 'chucking out the bad elements from within a community' is accepting and condemning publicly, MM. The leaders will have their own political agenda, yet, it is the first step towards what the public will want and it is right too, I feel.



As an example: The barrage of latest obscene postings this time by 'pallavi' on these DB's against Islam were very sickening, personally, to me also. It must have hurt some of the members religious sentiments. Did I condemn as a member here, atleast as yet? How many of us felt like condemning and did not ? and actually condemned publicly, including me? Not many.



Sometime back somebody else posted similar stuff against Hindu Gods. it was disgusting and hurtful to my religious sentiments as well. Did I post anything against those? No, not yet !!!



So, it certainly is the first step, MM, it certainly is.
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It is not religion. It is race

by vakibs » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:39 pm

I am pretty outraged at how Muslims in India are being cornerred after each terrorist attack. I am not talking about the Legal authorities (who I believe / atleast-hope are doing it the right way) But about the growing attitude of non-muslim people in the society.



[Terrorism is not a problem to be tackled by the Muslim community. It is a problem for the entire Indian fabric.



First of all, I don't like the sound of "Muslim Community". Why can't we just grow up and confine the elements of religion to the private space of the individual ?



Part of the blame may rest with the attitude of the Muslim people - who keep looking at the "book" for all kinds of answers.



Secondly, I don't like the sound of "Hindu Community". Because such a thing does not exist !! Hinduism is a rich system of diametrically opposite beliefs and cultures. Treating it as a religion is a mark of disrespect.



What we should realize is that "religion" is being used currently as a code-word / euphemism for the good old "racial arrogance". When Israelites and Arabs fight each other, they do it in the name of the One God that is endorsed by both the religions. But no sir, it has nothing to do with Islam or Judaism. It is the age-old feeling of racial hatred. (Arab Vs. European)



So I request all people, especially Indian Muslims, to see this under this new light. Neither Arabs nor Europeans have treated the Indian races with respect at any point in the history !



In fact, India is the perfect anti-thesis for race and racial wars. Each person in India has a genetic testimony to the mixture and marriage of races that has happened in history. Accompanying it is the enormous tolerance of foreign cultures that we have in India. Let's try to discover that Indianness and let's be proud of it.
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by Mayavi Morpheus » Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:51 pm

Arch wrote:The 'first step' towards 'chucking out the bad elements from within a community' is accepting and condemning publicly, MM. The leaders will have their own political agenda, yet, it is the first step towards what the public will want and it is right too, I feel.


I do not believe that symbollic condemning without following it up with actions is any usefull. As representatives of a religious community, the leaders have to condemn terrorrist incidents to project a positive image.
Like I said in my previous post, Pervez Musharraf condemns every terrorrist act against India, does it mean anything? Zip.
Imam Bukhari condemns every terrorrist act too and claims he is secular. Does he really mean it? For his own community gathering he wanted Islamic rule all over again.
Narendra Modi in his speech after the blasts said that terrorrism has no religion. Does he really mean it? He must be planning for the next riots.

So. as long as the community leaders do not take act to root out the problems, symbollic statements do not mean anything.

As an example: The barrage of latest obscene postings this time by 'pallavi' on these DB's against Islam were very sickening, personally, to me also. It must have hurt some of the members religious sentiments. Did I condemn as a member here, atleast as yet? How many of us felt like condemning and did not ? and actually condemned publicly, including me? Not many.




I did not feel like condemning it because it is not going to achieve anything. The person posting that stuff is sick of mind, and its the mods job to condemn it and maintain decorum, not mine. I cant do anything about it anyway. What would it have been like if the mods have 'condemned' it but did not delete the posts or ban pallavi? This is what I mean by symbollic acts.



When similar stuff happened long time back, I sent a PM to the mod and the posts were deleted. Btw, Indy did start a thread about that and it got deleted.



Now tell me how many 'condemn' posts did you see when equally bad stuff was said about Hindus and Hinduism?
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Re: It is not religion. It is race

by Akshay » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:16 pm

vakibs wrote:In fact, India is the perfect anti-thesis for race and racial wars. Each person in India has a genetic testimony to the mixture and marriage of races that has happened in history. Accompanying it is the enormous tolerance of foreign cultures that we have in India. Let's try to discover that Indianness and let's be proud of it.






Very good insight about the indian race. Racial wars are usually won over by the natural interbreeding. But ideological wars are harder to win, coz they are artificial.
God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh. Voltaire, philosopher (1694-1778)
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hmmmmmmm

by indiabo » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:52 pm

I did not feel like condemning it because it is not going to achieve anything. The person posting that stuff is sick of mind, and its the mods job to condemn it and maintain decorum, not mine. I cant do anything about it anyway. What would it have been like if the mods have 'condemned' it but did not delete the posts or ban pallavi? This is what I mean by symbollic acts
.

TRUE
Btw, Indy did start a thread about that and it got deleted.




I WAS THE FIRST TO DO SO AT 11.30.



keep on posting until all that hatred is removed!!!!!!!!!!



but there i read a comment from MM retorting abt cragg's comment.



Cragg's comment were unwanted uncalled and truely of low decorum.



but there was no comparison to the one in discussion.
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by Arch » Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:41 pm

Mayavi Morpheus wrote:
Arch wrote:The 'first step' towards 'chucking out the bad elements from within a community' is accepting and condemning publicly, MM. The leaders will have their own political agenda, yet, it is the first step towards what the public will want and it is right too, I feel.


I do not believe that symbollic condemning without following it up with actions is any usefull. As representatives of a religious community, the leaders have to condemn terrorrist incidents to project a positive image.
Like I said in my previous post, Pervez Musharraf condemns every terrorrist act against India, does it mean anything? Zip.
Imam Bukhari condemns every terrorrist act too and claims he is secular. Does he really mean it? For his own community gathering he wanted Islamic rule all over again.
Narendra Modi in his speech after the blasts said that terrorrism has no religion. Does he really mean it? He must be planning for the next riots.

So. as long as the community leaders do not take act to root out the problems, symbollic statements do not mean anything.

As an example: The barrage of latest obscene postings this time by 'pallavi' on these DB's against Islam were very sickening, personally, to me also. It must have hurt some of the members religious sentiments. Did I condemn as a member here, atleast as yet? How many of us felt like condemning and did not ? and actually condemned publicly, including me? Not many.


I did not feel like condemning it because it is not going to achieve anything. The person posting that stuff is sick of mind, and its the mods job to condemn it and maintain decorum, not mine. I cant do anything about it anyway. What would it have been like if the mods have 'condemned' it but did not delete the posts or ban pallavi? This is what I mean by symbollic acts.

When similar stuff happened long time back, I sent a PM to the mod and the posts were deleted. Btw, Indy did start a thread about that and it got deleted.

Now tell me how many 'condemn' posts did you see when equally bad stuff was said about Hindus and Hinduism?




It still is the first step, MM.. :)

even if it is symbolic.



When the Iraqi PM did not even want to condemn Hezbollah's attack on Israel, it meant something, symbolically, right? His choice of not condemning can be read into as anything.. including being scared of an increase in sectarian violence in his home country to being possibly alienated by his community for taking a stand for a zionist state... to not caring for 'Israeli' lives. His choice of 'not' wanting to condemn hezbollah symbolically shows a certain bent of his mind. If he were to have been totally silent, we would have read it as anything or nothing... ur 'maunamu, aradha angeekaaramu' does not hold good in his case.



btw, I did notice that there were not as many posts condemning filthy posts against Hindu religion.



There, see another reason why you should have posted, symbolically, more so as a senior member of these DB's :) you certainly have some clout.
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by Mayavi Morpheus » Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:56 am

Arch wrote:It still is the first step, MM.. :)
even if it is symbolic.




But sweetie, how many symbollic statements do we need? I am hearing such statements ever since I started reading news papers. Don't you think its high time to walk the talk?



Btw, there is a difference between head of a nation making a statement and a community leader making a statement. The former has a host of beaurecrats advising him and every word he speaks will have wider implications. Not so for a community leader, their statements look like taken from a template with appropriate dates/incidents.
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by Arch » Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:39 am

Mayavi Morpheus wrote:
Arch wrote:It still is the first step, MM.. :)
even if it is symbolic.


But sweetie, how many symbollic statements do we need? I am hearing such statements ever since I started reading news papers. Don't you think its high time to walk the talk?

Btw, there is a difference between head of a nation making a statement and a community leader making a statement. The former has a host of beaurecrats advising him and every word he speaks will have wider implications. Not so for a community leader, their statements look like taken from a template with appropriate dates/incidents.




As many times as they are needed, ofcourse, followed up w/ what u r suggesting MM.



But, I feel it is the appropriate FIRST step.. even for the head of a family... leave alone for the leader of a community or for the head of a country...it has its own impact, MM.



And you still feel its a no no?



ok.

no probs. :)
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by Mayavi Morpheus » Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:41 am

Arch wrote:And you still feel its a no no?




I am not saying that we dont need such statements, but we need statements followed by actions.
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