Israel-Hezbollah War

[indiabo]

You have a valid anology here

more then analogy wat i would like to convey is that one should rspect the govt appointed democratically by the people to rule over them. Its the people who thinks that it is in there best interest .

If any such party however right wing opinion it held even though it seats in opposition it helds respect in my eyes as they are the representative.

I have explicitly said Israel has to fight the terrorists using all means it considers appropriate to defend itself for now and for future

you acclaim over here that you want the terrorist to be fought upon.



I will wont use the term terrorist for hezbollah bcoz it needs the broader understanding that who is terrorised by whom?



Mumbai blast is a act of coward terrorist.



but hezbollah are are the one who who are supporting the lebanese in their social system. And by definition idf is said to be terrorising the palestinian by constructing the wall, routine check points....



american are doing so to iraqi population but they are terrorit regime.



even indian police in naxalite quaters are qouted as terrorist. in their villages.



its the people who feel terrorised have the right to say terrorist. we can say LET is a terrorist organization as we are suffering.



you are saying abt defense itself which it should as i have previously said abt ur point of right to survival.



but defense is to pinpoint attack on their enemy not on civilian population.

now you gonna retort that the people who lives by the sword should learn to use it.



but do u wanna say that by this point that you want whole of lebonon to be wiped.



is it not killing innoscent is terrorism becoz there are must be some who dont support hezb. for a mother a child is more imp then politics so they dont want hezb but they cant do anything change thier state of condition.



here comes the humanitarian principles of



war.





have a go at this un official's report.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objecti ... _page.html



i hope shrapnel can be dropped somewhere else.



I too have the opinion that the arabs are a bit thick as they ruled by nuisance regime but the regime is oppresive supported by israel and its allies. and in the end they are who have to suffer the common man!



by the way you didnt had a single statement in support of those arab captured by israel. you have been saying abt the right to defense of israel i would like to hear wat abt the human lives of those arabs.



and how far do u except the international autocracy of the birth of israel. which is even the route cause. after all its a occupation on palestine the sovreign nation.



emotions are integral to human behaviour and i am not exhausted i just feel helplessness. you are against terrorist so do i but you define them through media i analyse them. even please dont take in wrong sense or unpatriotic the act of trio (sardar bhagat singh ) of grenade attack in parliament of british raj was then highlighted as terrorising act. which is not at all.



and all those hezb's attack are seen by many non fighter as the act of liberating lebonon ( before mid 2000).

[indiabo]

I dont hate you. This is just a discussion on two ways of lookign at the current scene

yes it is. and i said abt the world opinion on these issue i didnt had any personal comment on u. but the ways have got only one ground to stand on.

OK give me a clue. How do you think Israel should have acted

I have pondered a lot on this. still in this process. i would like someone else also to help me out.



Yes you dont expect one of the most superior air power to stand by at any such attack. its naval capabilities are also exceptional.



above all you have ally like US.



conspiracy theory of self harm ?



wat all i would like to put forward is that the scale of destruction is too large to be advocated.



must have been hezbollah specific attack. and if in locals then should have limited the use such a juggernaut force.

[tfb]

OK I will elaborate for your sake:
1) The pictures themselves are nauseating to me as they would be to any normal human, as per my understanding again.
2) Even more nauseating to me is the use of those pictures for spreading propaganda, seeking sympathy, and buttressing points of views.

Whoa, the pictures themselves are nauseating but the actions are not , the actions that you so vehemnetly are being a cheerleader for they themselves are not gut wrenching , what is nauseating and disturbing is your support whats causing those nauseating pictures , not even a mention from you of the loss of life in Lebanon, so much for being human and showing the farce of humanity which is exclusively supposed to be not for Muslims anywhere.

Dismissing the truth as propaganda doesnt help your case of supporting the bombing of the lebanese children and blowing them up into pieces, that was to see if you really support what you see in the picture , a picutre represents reality and reality cannot be branded as propaganda.

Another indication of brainswashed state of mind overwhelmed with hatred for Muslims in general anywhere.

Do I support killing children? Oofcourse not. Do I support killing adults? ofcourse not. Do I support killing innocents? ofcourse not. Do I support killing guilty? Ofcourse not. Do I support death penalty? Ofcourse not. Do I support killing lunatic terrorists bent on killing you? You bet I do.

You are the first person to say that all those people killed including the children in the pictures are terrorists, either you are overobsessive lunatic or a monomaniac who labels people who are dying as terrorists to justify supporting their murder.

To summarize, you will not support killing children , you will not support killing civilians, but you would support killing children and civilains and women and what not if they are labelled as terrorists. (I am more than inclined to think you would support if they just happen to be Muslims judging by your apathy and hatred towards the ones being killed right now as we debate) .

As some one else put it here , the definition of terrorist depends of who is being terrorized, in this context the stronger terrorist is the one causing more desctruction and loss of human life.

Let me present two cases:
1) I am happily going by tran in mumbai to meet my beautiful lady and I have all these nice feelings in my head...then suddenly BOOOM.
2) I funded and allowed hezb to prevail on the borders. I have significant hezb representation in my parliament. I have benefited through hezbs madrasas, hospitals, soup kitchens, and what not. As I supported and enjoyed the patronage of hezb I should expect to suffer with the hezb. No free lunch anywhere.

Assuimg that this is the right analogy which I doubt doesnt fit in this context, in that case I would support your suffering , but I would never support maiming your beautiful lady(as you put it..),killing your children, bombing your parents and blowing them up into pieces, and then happily being a cheer leader as someone else put it.

I would not support those actions just because you happen to be a Hindu and your family happens to be a Hindu family becuase of my grudge against Hindus, to me they will more of humans than of Hindus.

muslims seeking worldwide calliphate and destruction of kaffirs. Dont take my word for it; read the literature of Markazs, qaidas, lashkars, jaishs, hezbs, hamases and all their sister orgs.

This is just an absurd and baseless allegation, which does not deserve even a superficial attempt to analyze it. This is a classic example of propaganda which you said you dont like doing.

[mango]

Whoa, the pictures themselves are nauseating but the actions are not , the actions that you so vehemnetly are being a cheerleader for they themselves are not gut wrenching , what is nauseating and disturbing is your support whats causing those nauseating pictures , not even a mention from you of the loss of life in Lebanon, so much for being human and showing the farce of humanity which is exclusively supposed to be not for Muslims anywhere.

Dismissing the truth as propaganda doesnt help your case of supporting the bombing of the lebanese children and blowing them up into pieces, that was to see if you really support what you see in the picture , a picutre represents reality and reality cannot be branded as propaganda.

Another indication of brainswashed state of mind overwhelmed with hatred for Muslims in general anywhere.

i think during a war, you can't afford to look at the enemy's dead or their plight. the lebanese brought this upon themselves by allowing hezbollah to exist and launch attacks upon the israel.

if the sole purpose of hezbollah is to drive the jews into the mediterranean, then the israelis can wipe out anyone they see as being supporters of their (israeli) extinction.

You are the first person to say that all those people killed including the children in the pictures are terrorists, either you are overobsessive lunatic or a monomaniac who labels people who are dying as terrorists to justify supporting their murder.

To summarize, you will not support killing children , you will not support killing civilians, but you would support killing children and civilains and women and what not if they are labelled as terrorists. (I am more than inclined to think you would support if they just happen to be Muslims judging by your apathy and hatred towards the ones being killed right now as we debate) .

if they are "civilians" bent upon killing me or my kind (someone of a different belief) and actively support that cause, they arent innocent anymore and i hope they are destroyed. i have no qualms over the death of such people.

As some one else put it here , the definition of terrorist depends of who is being terrorized, in this context the stronger terrorist is the one causing more desctruction and loss of human life. Assuimg that this is the right analogy which I doubt doesnt fit in this context, in that case I would support your suffering , but I would never support maiming your beautiful lady(as you put it..),killing your children, bombing your parents and blowing them up into pieces, and then happily being a cheer leader as someone else put it.

you can play a ringaround all you want. theres a they and theres an us. there is no middle ground. i don't support the death of any particular race or religion. however, if a certain section or group of it supports my conversion or death of me/people who i support (israel), then yes.. i will support and participate, when necessary, in their destruction before they are successful with their goals.

[Akshay]

OK I will elaborate for your sake:
1) The pictures themselves are nauseating to me as they would be to any normal human, as per my understanding again.
2) Even more nauseating to me is the use of those pictures for spreading propaganda, seeking sympathy, and buttressing points of views.

Whoa, the pictures themselves are nauseating but the actions are not , the actions that you so vehemnetly are being a cheerleader for they themselves are not gut wrenching , what is nauseating and disturbing is your support whats causing those nauseating pictures , not even a mention from you of the loss of life in Lebanon, so much for being human and showing the farce of humanity which is exclusively supposed to be not for Muslims anywhere.

Dismissing the truth as propaganda doesnt help your case of supporting the bombing of the lebanese children and blowing them up into pieces, that was to see if you really support what you see in the picture , a picutre represents reality and reality cannot be branded as propaganda.

Another indication of brainswashed state of mind overwhelmed with hatred for Muslims in general anywhere.

Do I support killing children? Oofcourse not. Do I support killing adults? ofcourse not. Do I support killing innocents? ofcourse not. Do I support killing guilty? Ofcourse not. Do I support death penalty? Ofcourse not. Do I support killing lunatic terrorists bent on killing you? You bet I do.

You are the first person to say that all those people killed including the children in the pictures are terrorists, either you are overobsessive lunatic or a monomaniac who labels people who are dying as terrorists to justify supporting their murder.

To summarize, you will not support killing children , you will not support killing civilians, but you would support killing children and civilains and women and what not if they are labelled as terrorists. (I am more than inclined to think you would support if they just happen to be Muslims judging by your apathy and hatred towards the ones being killed right now as we debate) .

As some one else put it here , the definition of terrorist depends of who is being terrorized, in this context the stronger terrorist is the one causing more desctruction and loss of human life.

Let me present two cases:
1) I am happily going by tran in mumbai to meet my beautiful lady and I have all these nice feelings in my head...then suddenly BOOOM.
2) I funded and allowed hezb to prevail on the borders. I have significant hezb representation in my parliament. I have benefited through hezbs madrasas, hospitals, soup kitchens, and what not. As I supported and enjoyed the patronage of hezb I should expect to suffer with the hezb. No free lunch anywhere.

Assuimg that this is the right analogy which I doubt doesnt fit in this context, in that case I would support your suffering , but I would never support maiming your beautiful lady(as you put it..),killing your children, bombing your parents and blowing them up into pieces, and then happily being a cheer leader as someone else put it.

I would not support those actions just because you happen to be a Hindu and your family happens to be a Hindu family becuase of my grudge against Hindus, to me they will more of humans than of Hindus.

muslims seeking worldwide calliphate and destruction of kaffirs. Dont take my word for it; read the literature of Markazs, qaidas, lashkars, jaishs, hezbs, hamases and all their sister orgs.

This is just an absurd and baseless allegation, which does not deserve even a superficial attempt to analyze it. This is a classic example of propaganda which you said you dont like doing.

Would you be happy if I say I pity the dead and curse the israelis? What is so anti muslim in supporting Israel's strategically defensive move against terrorist threats? What is truth and reality? Truth is not three selective pictures from the panorama of Israeli Arab wars. You can only run emotions high using these pictures.



I can assure you that if Hezb separates out themselves from the common folk they claim to be fighting for then those common folk would not be dead. So dont you think hezb is bringing it on those kids by living and functioning around them while being absolutely aware that they are imperilling those same kids?







I appreciate your points of views.



Your concern for the dead is well appreciated. But your demand to discern the dead as hezbollah or not is premature.



As I said before, attacking the motive is the last resort of a floundering argument. You are not gonna do much justice accusing me of muslim bashing. Never have I mentioned that muslims are responsible for the problem.



You were to quote my "communal statements". I am waiting for them.



Your extrapolations of my statements and your resulting ridiculous conclusions are unworthy of a discourse. Further the personalization of your attacks is turning more venomous post by post. I have no interest in going down that drain.



I disagree with your point of view.



Have a good day.

[tfb]

i think during a war, you can't afford to look at the enemy's dead or their plight. the lebanese brought this upon themselves by allowing hezbollah to exist and launch attacks upon the israel.

Shifting goal posts again to justify the genocide of the lebanese by whatever means possible , if I could remember this was not the first justification to support the death of the lebanese on a wholesale basis.Earlier it was supposed to be the capture of Israeli soldiers in Lebanon inside Lebanon.

if the sole purpose of hezbollah is to drive the jews into the mediterranean, then the israelis can wipe out anyone they see as being supporters of their (israeli) extinction.

Baseless allegation and propaganda not worthy of any comment.

if they are "civilians" bent upon killing me or my kind (someone of a different belief) and actively support that cause, they arent innocent anymore and i hope they are destroyed. i have no qualms over the death of such people.

It really tells about your state of mind ,anyways its not how much you support and wish for the genocide of the Lebanese population or the destruction of Lebanon, there is something called international laws , and then there is something called war crimes which cannot be violated, civilians cannot be targeted just becuase you hate them or they hate you , every other civilian hates a invading army.Unless one is a hypocrite enough to love it to exclusively save his own a$$.

If we go by your logic there are many who wont be innocent anymore, which atleast includes cheerleading yourself.

if a certain section or group of it supports my conversion or death of me/people who i support (israel), then yes.. i will support and participate, when necessary, in their destruction before they are successful with their goals.

Continuation of baseless allegations and propaganda...again..to justify the cheerleading.

[Akshay]

In your previous post you said

muslims seeking worldwide calliphate and destruction of kaffirs. Dont take my word for it; read the literature of Markazs, qaidas, lashkars, jaishs, hezbs, hamases and all their sister orgs.

This is just an absurd and baseless allegation, which does not deserve even a superficial attempt to analyze it. This is a classic example of propaganda which you said you dont like doing.

While my exact statement was as below

Dont tell me these two are disconnected. Both the events are the results of the lunatic finge brigade of violent minority muslims seeking worldwide calliphate and destruction of kaffirs. Dont take my word for it; read the literature of Markazs, qaidas, lashkars, jaishs, hezbs, hamases and all their sister orgs. Denial of this problem's existence is not gonna help much.

Dont tell me you didnt want to present a distorted picture of my comments.







At the same time a more accurate version of what I meant was: Dont tell me these two are disconnected. Both the events are the results of the lunatic finge brigade of violent minority among muslims seeking worldwide calliphate and destruction of kaffirs. Dont take my word for it; read the literature of Markazs, qaidas, lashkars, jaishs, hezbs, hamases and all their sister orgs. Denial of this problem's existence is not gonna help much.

[mango]

Shifting goal posts again to justify the genocide of the lebanese by whatever means possible , if I could remember this was not the first justification to support the death of the lebanese on a wholesale basis.Earlier it was supposed to be the capture of Israeli soldiers in Lebanon inside Lebanon.

yeahh.. the capture of the soldiers started this. if they have a chance to fix it when they are already there, then i dont see any issue.

Baseless allegation and propaganda not worthy of any comment.

"Hezbollah supports the destruction of the state of Israel[65] and co-operates with other militant Islamic organizations such as Hamas in order to promote this goal."
-Wikipedia.com

you were saying something about baseless allegations?

It really tells about your state of mind ,anyways its not how much you support and wish for the genocide of the Lebanese population or the destruction of Lebanon, there is something called international laws , and then there is something called war crimes which cannot be violated, civilians cannot be targeted just becuase you hate them or they hate you , every other civilian hates a invading army.Unless one is a hypocrite enough to love it to exclusively save his own a$$.

international laws? hezbollah broke international law when it captured israeli soldiers by attacking them when unattacked. i'm glad you can discern my state of mind - i belive its called survival. civilans dont remain civilans when they actively support your destruction. dont beat around the bush. if weapons caches are found in mosques and houses, they arent really civilian structures are they now? call me a hypocrite if you want.. i dont hold the same views for myself as i do for my enemies. genius.

If we go by your logic there are many who wont be innocent anymore, which atleast includes cheerleading yourself.

yeah.. thats right.

if a certain section or group of it supports my conversion or death of me/people who i support (israel), then yes.. i will support and participate, when necessary, in their destruction before they are successful with their goals.

Continuation of baseless allegations and propaganda...again..to justify the cheerleading.[/quote]

[mango]

Continuation of baseless allegations and propaganda...again..to justify the cheerleading.

oh.. you mean like my baseless allegations that hezbollah was bent upont the destruction of israel? that kind of propaganda?



LMAO

[indiabo]

I am waitin for the reply to my previous 2 posts.



and did you read that link for the news artivle in my second last post

[Mayavi Morpheus]

I have pondered a lot on this. still in this process. i would like someone else also to help me out.

wat all i would like to put forward is that the scale of destruction is too large to be advocated.

You seem to be genuinely interested in trying to understand the larger issue, so here is my 2 cents worth.



1. Israel is a jewish country surrounded by Islamic arab states.



2. The existence of a jewish state in arab heart land was not taken well by the arabs right from the day it was created.



3. In the years prior to formation of Israel, i.e., when the jewish population in palestine began swelling due to anti-semetism in europe, the arabs were against the immigration. But since the land was british controlled and arabs were poor (before oil was struck), they couldn't do much about it.



4. Once Israel formed, arabs also became rich thanks to their oil resources. They never recognized Israel as a state and vowed to destroy it.



5. Hence started the 1948 war in which Israel occupied most of palestine and jordan occupied some.



6. The arabs were never at peace with Israelis and started another war in '67 (six day war) where muslim states declared war against Israel. But the arabs were given a sound thrashing and territorial equations changed in favour of Israel.



7. Egypt and Jordan, long time Israelis enemies, made peace with Israel after some time in 70's and recognized it as a jewish state. Israel withdrew from Egypt and lebanon and gave up the occupied territory.



8. After the Iranian revolution, Iran joined in the Hate_Israel band wagon.



9. Meantime, there was lot of blood shed between Israel and PLO with frequent PLO attacks on Israeli civilian population and Jewish population overseas. The war of attrition continued. Israel tried to concede most of the occupied territory to Palestine which was not accepted by PLO.



10. It is in this backdrop that Israel deals firmly with terrorrism. For every terrorrist act against them, they react even more violently inflicting much more pain on the terrorrists and their backers. If they havent reacted the way they did by going for all out war, hezbollah and hamas togather would have increased their attacks and then it would have tempted the rest of arab states to go to war with Israel.



11. Middle east is a place where peacefulness is percieved as weakness. Same applies to India-pak equation, but since India is so big that even if its perceived to be as weak by pakis, they cant do jack shit.

[indiabo]

Thanks MM but i am well aware of the sitution out there.



abt its history thats is till point 9.



i am well versed with it toooo.





akshay wrote

OK give me a clue. How do you think Israel should have acted



according to point 10 you wanna say you are advocating or justfying the IDF heavy action which is now slowly being started condemned by int community.



do favour civilian killing as well according to your point 10.



please dont say what israelis doing is in its best interest tell me in respect to the mass murder of lebanese, captured thousands of arab, palestinian occupation.

[Akshay]

You have a valid anology here

more then analogy wat i would like to convey is that one should rspect the govt appointed democratically by the people to rule over them. Its the people who thinks that it is in there best interest .

If any such party however right wing opinion it held even though it seats in opposition it helds respect in my eyes as they are the representative.

It has to be respected for the fact that it respresents the voice of the people. The voice itself need not be respected. Tthe voice itself must be punished if it is genocidal. Dont tell em you respect the voice that the sudanese govt represents after what they have been doing in Darfur. Dont tell me your respect the Guj govt's voice after what they have done in gujarat.

I have explicitly said Israel has to fight the terrorists using all means it considers appropriate to defend itself for now and for future

you acclaim over here that you want the terrorist to be fought upon.

I will wont use the term terrorist for hezbollah bcoz it needs the broader understanding that who is terrorised by whom?

I agree terrorism is open to multiple interpretations. But you got to realise that civil society runs through accountability and trust.

States are accountable and that leaves room for victims to seek redressal against state terror (police army etc). But Militias are unaccountable ...who do you hold accountable for lashkar and hezbullah attrocities? When external governments sponsor, sympathise, fund and encourage unaccountable militias then the external governments should be held accountable along with the militias.

Civil societies regulate the violence amongs its members by apprpriating the right to vengence and retribution. That breaks down when militias are around. Hence militias and their supporters must be dealt with sternly.

Mumbai blast is a act of coward terrorist.

but hezbollah are are the one who who are supporting the lebanese in their social system. And by definition idf is said to be terrorising the palestinian by constructing the wall, routine check points....

Lashkar also did some social activity during kashmir earthquake. That doesnt absolve their them from their devilish past and future. Similarly Hezbollah.

What you got to ask is why is a militia running the borders of a sovereign country. If that country cannot excercise its sovereignity within its borders then the suffering neighbors have every right to help them in exercising it.

american are doing so to iraqi population but they are terrorit regime.

even indian police in naxalite quaters are qouted as terrorist. in their villages.

its the people who feel terrorised have the right to say terrorist. we can say LET is a terrorist organization as we are suffering.

I admit the current issue is just a piece of the whole worldwide inequalities and struggles but let us restrict to discussing the subject.

you are saying abt defense itself which it should as i have previously said abt ur point of right to survival.

but defense is to pinpoint attack on their enemy not on civilian population.
now you gonna retort that the people who lives by the sword should learn to use it.

but do u wanna say that by this point that you want whole of lebonon to be wiped.


is it not killing innoscent is terrorism becoz there are must be some who dont support hezb. for a mother a child is more imp then politics so they dont want hezb but they cant do anything change thier state of condition.

I have no take on how intense the action should be. I only support the aggressively defensive action of Israel.

No existing bomb can distinguish between innocent and guilty. Until then the casualities of innocent among guilty is inevitable. As I responded to tfb...hezb can decrease the casualities among the innocent by just not functioning among them. Hezb is using the innocent as a shield. Hezb is your culprit for the death of innocents.

By the way how do you suggest we pinpoint the guilty. The enemy is nebulous. What do you do when you see a partially rotten apple? either you throw it away or remove rotten part. when you remove the rotten part inevitably some good part is gonna go with it.

here comes the humanitarian principles of

war.


have a go at this un official's report.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objecti ... _page.html

UN is a good peace keeper...once the war ends its gonna have its role.

i hope shrapnel can be dropped somewhere else.

I hope that too. But hezbs have to move away from civilian areas for that to happen.

I too have the opinion that the arabs are a bit thick as they ruled by nuisance regime but the regime is oppresive supported by israel and its allies. and in the end they are who have to suffer the common man!

by the way you didnt had a single statement in support of those arab captured by israel. you have been saying abt the right to defense of israel i would like to hear wat abt the human lives of those arabs.

Read back..I did support your argument that they need redressals. They must get the opportunity to present their innocense. But there are ways to demand such. Using unaccountable militias is only detrimental.

and how far do u except the international autocracy of the birth of israel. which is even the route cause. after all its a occupation on palestine the sovreign nation.

I have already given my stance on this. Israel presents a demographic anomaly in arab lands. And there have been many such cases in the history. The fact is israel is irreversible.

emotions are integral to human behaviour and i am not exhausted i just feel helplessness. you are against terrorist so do i but you define them through media i analyse them. even please dont take in wrong sense or unpatriotic the act of trio (sardar bhagat singh ) of grenade attack in parliament of british raj was then highlighted as terrorising act. which is not at all.

Good point. A militia (including sardar bagat and singh) is always functioning on the periphery of terrorism.

If you look at the independence of algeria.....I support what the algerians did to the french...coz french were subjugating algerians in algeria. algerians had every right to fight for their freedom.

similarly indians had every right to fight for their freedom.


What you are seeing in Israel now is totally different. Here Hezb, a militia, is being supported by arab nations to conduct a proxy war. Thsi is nto for freedom. This proxy war is to elimiate what they consider to be a demographic and religious anomaly amidst them.

There is a lot of difference.

and all those hezb's attack are seen by many non fighter as the act of liberating lebonon ( before mid 2000).

ok...lets get back to current episode.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Thanks MM but i am well aware of the sitution out there.

abt its history thats is till point 9.

i am well versed with it toooo.

do favour civilian killing as well according to your point 10.

please dont say what israelis doing is in its best interest tell me in respect to the mass murder of lebanese, captured thousands of arab, palestinian occupation.

This is precisely why I posted the brief history of the middle east conflict. Do not see the current war as an isolated incident where civilians are being killed. The conflicted existed even before you were born and may be even before your parents were born, countless number of people were killed on either side and all sides have suffered.



Look at the larger picture, Hezbollah has been attacking Israel for a long time now and with the recent soldier snatching they crossed the red lines. I am not good at analogies but imagine a bowl floating in water. When you add water to it drop by drop it keeps floating until a time when it cant take anymore and sinks. You cannot say that its the last drop that made the bowl sink, its the cumulative effect of all the drops that went before it.



Like I said, given the history of the middle east conflict, if Israel did not react the way it reacted, with overwhelming power, it would have been considered weak and more Israelis would have died.



When you start a war with someone who is 100 times more powerful than you, expect retaliation on the same scale. You cannot say 'look I am a small terrorrist organization, you have to fight me on my terms with only guns and diwali rockets'. No, it does not work that way. Hezbollah should have thought about Israels retaliation before the began the sabre rattling. If you, who is not related to the lebanese in any way, is so concerned about civilian lebanese deaths, then the Hezbollah should have been even more concerned as they are their support base.



It is unfortunate that innocent lebanese civilians are dying, but then so are innocent israelis. People die in a war and this war was started by Hezbollah. To me, the lebanese deaths are collateral damage and collateral damage cannot be avoided in a war. Israel is not bombing civilians, they are bombing the terrorrist strong holds and their support infrastructure. Hezbollah on the other hand is purely targetting civilians, not military installations. I am not justifying the killings, but I am resigned to the fact that this is inevitable. I am not a person who believes that peace talks will resolve issues (especially when religion is involved). They never did in the past and never will in the future.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Off-topic, posting because there is no appropriate thread for this post.





ONLY IN INDIA!

[tfb]

Off-topic, posting because there is no appropriate thread for this post.


ONLY IN INDIA!

This is not only off topic but also a blatant lie , that its in India , can we have the link please , dont tell me you are not indulging in propaganda, there are many pictures of Hindu fundamntalists sticking a trishul in a Muslim infant during the Gujarat incident that I can post here but it will be offtopic, ....and my urge to post it will not overlook the fact that its offtopic..... a quick google search of the organization name points to Afghanistan.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

This is not only off topic but also a blatant lie , that its in India , can we have the link please

If you are so sure that its not in India, why do you want the link?? You must have already seen the picture with a different caption, no? If not, how do you know I am lying?

dont tell me you are not indulging in propaganda, there are many pictures of Hindu fundamntalists sticking a trishul in a Muslim infant

And what would you do if I deny it as your propaganda?

my urge to post it will not overlook the fact that its offtopic..... a quick google search of the organization name points to Afghanistan.

The people in the picture are protesting Israel-Hezbollah war and it fits the general discussion we are having here.
Btw, Tehreek is a kashmiri muslim group. Here is a reference to them from the tribune.

Several separatist leaders, including Nayeem Ahmad Khan, J&K National Front, Sheikh Abdul Aziz (APHC) and Bashir Ahmad Bhat, JKLF, were among a number of demonstrators held by the police.

Various separatist political parties have also expressed concern over the alleged human rights violations in the state at the hands of security forces. These parties include Jamaat-e-Islami, Mulsim League, J&K People’s League, Democratic Freedom Party, Mulsim Khawateen Markaz, Tehreek-e-Wahdat-e-Islami, Students Movement and Islami Tanzeem-e-Azadi.

[tfb]

This is not only off topic but also a blatant lie , that its in India , can we have the link please

If you are so sure that its not in India, why do you want the link?? You must have already seen the picture with a different caption, no? If not, how do you know I am lying?

dont tell me you are not indulging in propaganda, there are many pictures of Hindu fundamntalists sticking a trishul in a Muslim infant

And what would you do if I deny it as your propaganda?

my urge to post it will not overlook the fact that its offtopic..... a quick google search of the organization name points to Afghanistan.

The people in the picture are protesting Israel-Hezbollah war and it fits the general discussion we are having here.
Btw, Tehreek is a kashmiri muslim group. Here is a reference to them from the tribune.

Several separatist leaders, including Nayeem Ahmad Khan, J&K National Front, Sheikh Abdul Aziz (APHC) and Bashir Ahmad Bhat, JKLF, were among a number of demonstrators held by the police.

Various separatist political parties have also expressed concern over the alleged human rights violations in the state at the hands of security forces. These parties include Jamaat-e-Islami, Mulsim League, J&K People’s League, Democratic Freedom Party, Mulsim Khawateen Markaz, Tehreek-e-Wahdat-e-Islami, Students Movement and Islami Tanzeem-e-Azadi.

you still cant prove that this is in India - if even I buy your propaganda that its in kashmir it would be a different story altogether, becuase we all know situation in Kashmor cannot be applied to the rest of the India in general.



If you want to prove that you are not indulging in propaganda, a link would be appreciated, otherwise it would be just an out of context and trivial propaganda.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

hahaha.... you are trying so hard to justify it. So it is ok for kashmiris to hold such placards as they are different but you wont shut up if IA kicks their collective terrorrists asses.



Anyway, the picture is take down from the site, that is why it was hosted on photobucket. But you can see it in the background of this image hosted on yahoo.



LINK

An Activist of Tahreek-E-Wahdat-E-Islami shouts slogans during a protest against the ongoing Israeli offensive in Lebanon, in Srinagar, India, Wednesday, July 26, 2006. Dozens of Tahreek-E-Wahdat-E-Islami members took to the streets of central Srinagar and demonstrated against the killing of innocent civilians, including women and children, in Israeli attacks on Lebanon and Palestine. Banner reads 'we are protesting against the dominance of America.' (AP Photo/Rafiq Maqbool)

[tfb]

hahaha.... you are trying so hard to justify it. So it is ok for kashmiris to hold such placards as they are different but you wont shut up if IA kicks their collective terrorrists asses.

Anyway, the picture is take down from the site, that is why it was hosted on photobucket. But you can see it in the background of this image hosted on yahoo.

LINK

An Activist of Tahreek-E-Wahdat-E-Islami shouts slogans during a protest against the ongoing Israeli offensive in Lebanon, in Srinagar, India, Wednesday, July 26, 2006. Dozens of Tahreek-E-Wahdat-E-Islami members took to the streets of central Srinagar and demonstrated against the killing of innocent civilians, including women and children, in Israeli attacks on Lebanon and Palestine. Banner reads 'we are protesting against the dominance of America.' (AP Photo/Rafiq Maqbool)

All you could muster up is the link of a imagehosting wesbite that you uploaded the picture to, what was the basis of the caption "ONLY IN INDIA" along with that picture. How much time do you need to prove this?

[Arch]

How should India act



-to regular barrage of suicide bombings?

-to calls to be annihilated off the map of the earth? -more so if we went through holocaust in Germany?

-to having seceded two cities of our country, say 'mumbai' and 'hyderabad' on a promise that we will be allowed to live in peace ? -and to yet being attacked everyday either by suicide bombings or straight verbal , terrorists' attacks from the 'goverments' of Pakistan, Afghanistan, China and Bangla Desh?

-to the rest of the world, including UN, Vatican asking us to show 'restraint' whenever we are so attacked

-to the same UN not even showing India on its map!

-to the attacks from all sides of our borders in spite of UN peace keeping forces' presence for past 28 years on the borders

-to an attack on our soldiers' bunkers in say Assam from underground tunnel, killed/maimed and kidnapped and then another similar situation occurs say in Punjab

- to these terrorists demanding for prisoner exchange of 10 of our soldiers to 5000 pakis, banglas, chinese and afghanis (where hundreds of our soldiers would have laid down their lives to capture these terrorists)

-to the rest of the world saying it is disproportionate, God forbid, we do not show our enemies the other cheek but start defending ourselves, say,

-to the enemy not following any traditional international rules of war but we adhere

-to our enemy having their head quarters in mosques and apartment buildings living with their women, children and old and when we have to annihilate them for our and our country's survival, world media saying we killed innocent civilians and attacked places of worship

-to the vast majority of the world hating us- why? simply.



How should India should act ?

[mango]

How should India should act ?

march to the capitals of the enemy and destroy it. or, nukes are good too

[Arch]

UN also prejudiced against Israel ?



http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull

It is difficult at times, and perhaps today impossible, to fathom how UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan assesses events involving Israel. On Tuesday, four members of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) were killed when their position was hit by IDF fire.

Annan reacted by declaring that the incident was "an apparent deliberate targeting by the Israeli Defense Forces of a UN observer post."

Yesterday, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert conveyed to Annan Israel's "deep regret" over the incident, as well his "reservations" over Annan's "inconceivable" decision to accuse Israel of deliberately targeting UN forces.

Reservations? Perhaps Olmert had to be polite, but outrage would be a more appropriate sentiment.

Just yesterday, Israel paid another terrible price in its soldiers' lives in the fight against Hizbullah. They died defending their country, but they also died, in effect, implementing UN Security Council Resolution 1559, which demands the disarming of Hizbullah.

Israel has already apologized for, and pledged to investigate, the deaths of the UNIFIL soldiers. Where is Kofi Annan's apology for insulting Israel, and his investigation of how UNIFIL came to be so inseparable from Hizbullah that it has been almost impossible to target the later without inadvertently hitting the former? Where is his gratitude for Israel's implementation, with the blood of its children, of a UN resolution?

And why, pray tell, would Israel target UNIFIL? Is Annan suggesting some sort of Israeli anti-UN sadism, or that Israel would have some reason to target UNIFIL in its war with Hizbullah?

But the lack of clear thought inherent in Annan's allegation goes further. The IDF, perhaps more than any other military force, does its utmost to avoid hitting noncombatants. The most outstanding instance of this was Operation Defensive Shield in 2002, when the IDF used infantry to flush out terrorists rather than bomb them from the air and kill innocent civilians. Dozens of soldiers paid with their lives for upholding this standard

In his own report on UNIFIL, delivered just last week to the UN Security Council, Annan noted that "on the morning of 15 July, IDF announced via loudspeakers to the residents of [the Lebanese villages of] Ayta ash Shab and Marwallin that they should vacate their villages," clearly to minimize noncombatant casualties. Far from targeting civilians, Annan is aware that the IDF routinely sacrifices the element of surprise to spare them.

The lamentable killing of the four UNIFIL personnel clearly requires investigation, something the IDF carries out in any case of a mistake made in the heat of battle. But an investigation of even greater importance to long-term regional stability would be of UNIFIL's failure to fulfill its mandate of restoring peace and security in southern Lebanon and assisting the Lebanese government in restoring its effective authority in the area.

With diplomacy focused on creating a new multinational force in the aftermath of the fighting in southern Lebanon, it is essential to understand what went wrong with the existing one.

Such an investigation must determine more than just how UNIFIL troops were located in such close proximity to Hizbullah terrorists that they ended up in the line of fire. More fundamentally, it would delve into how, in complete contravention of its objectives, UNIFIL stood by without a murmur as a terrorist organization amassed thousands upon thousands of rockets whose unprovoked use has killed and wounded dozens of Israelis and precipitated the current war.

The bitter irony is that Annan himself reported to the Security Council back in January 2001 that UNIFIL had completed implementation of the part of its mandate requiring it to help Lebanese authorities resume control of the area vacated by Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000. If he was right, the IDF would not now be operating against Hizbullah, and absorbing mounting casualties. And four UNIFIL workers would not be dead today.

Since his initial outburst, Annan has accepted Israel's apology, although it is not entirely clear whether he now accepts Israel's insistence on the inadvertent nature of the incident. That's not enough.

It is Israel that is owed an apology for Annan accusation, which our UN ambassador called shocking, distressing, premature, hasty and erroneous. We are owed more than that: an independent, blue-ribbon investigation into how UNIFIL forces became human shields for the terrorist army they should have been fighting to dismantle.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Say I have a picture of Abdul Kalam in 1960's with India's first rocket and I post it here, would he cease to be abdul kalam since I dont have the link to the original press clipping?

[V]

Israel is today like a bait



Israel is today like a bait that has been tied down in the path of the murderous beast. The beast of Islam has been threatening to devour the bait (Israel) for the last five decades since 1948. The beast repeatedly lunges at the prey through bomb blasts at Bus Terminals, Pizza Parlors, Shopping Malls, Settlements, Discos, ripping into shreds what were till then innocent school kids, housewives, office goers, and civilians of all persuasions.





Israel is the sentinel of Civilization facing the wild frontier of Islam. The survival of Israel and the destruction of its enemies is the first requirement to defeat the Islamic Jihad.



Israel stands in the way of the march of the Islamic Jihad towards the Western World. In the unlikely scenario where Israel is destroyed, the wild beasts of the Islamic Jihad will run riot across Europe, that has already been infiltrated by Muslim hordes who have been multiplying manifold using the womb bomb to eventually swamp Europe with the Muslim menace and eliminate all non-Islamic denominations be they Christian, Post-Christian or non-Christian.





What makes Israel unbearable is the fact that Muslims have always been at the forefront of grabbing non-Muslim lands and declaring themselves to be legitimate and permanent Muslim land once it fell prey to the claws of the Muslims. Israel is one case of the reverse being true. Muslims want to drive Jewish people out of the Holy land, and re-occupy it, although the land originally belonged to the Jewish people during Biblical times.



Israel is today, like a fishbone stuck in the Arab throat, and howsoever hard the Arab try they have not been able to spit out Israel from the Middle East.