Agni designers are incompetent: Pakistan scientist ---

[CTC]

A painful truth : read it





Islamabad - The failure of Agni-III reflected ‘incompetence’ of the Indian missile designers and planners, said an eminent Pakistani scientist.



They would need to go back to the drawing board and take two to three years, unless ‘they borrow something from abroad,’ said Samar Mubarikmund, chairman of Pakistan’s National Engineering and Science Commission (Nescom).



Claiming that Israel was involved in developing India’s missile programme, Mubarikmund said Pakistan, which had an ‘indigenous’ programme of its own, retained superiority over all others in the South Asian region.



Mubarikmund told The News Sunday that the circumstances narrated by the Indians for the failure of the missile test were ‘not acceptable.’



The Indian missile met a disaster as it could not attain the altitude where the first stage is over or the second is even ignited.



He disputed the Indian claim, saying that with the range of 3,500 km, the missile had to go above about 800-900 km while the second stage had to be ignited at 28 to 30 km.



‘If the missile fell from the height of 12 km, it establishes that either it’s motor rocket, the basics of the missile proved failure or the guidance and control system was faulty. In both the probabilities, Indian technology has been exposed in clumsy manners.’



‘It is interesting to watch that Indian missile programme that was initiated by French and US assistance and later New Delhi also borrowed Russian technical support has been facing tragedies from the beginning,’ the newspaper quoted him as saying.



The newspaper also quoted from official sources to take pot shots at Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.



‘In fact he (Manmohan Singh) attained high moral ground for his country just to provide cover to constant failures of his country’s scientists engaged in developing long-range missiles and they were hesitating from testing the missile,’ the sources said.



Pakistan is still maintaining its superiority in missile technology in whole South Asia as it has successfully tested number of missiles with various ranges including Shaheen-II that has the range of the 2,500 km with all remarkably accurate parameters.



These parameters proved in the presence of international neutral empires when the missile hit the target to extent of centimetres accuracy in the Indian Ocean, the sources said.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

A painful truth : read it

So you need a paki morons who never designed anything on their own except green paint the ding dong missiles from North Korea to tell you that the eminent scientists of India are incompetent? Such inferiority complex?
Yes the missile failed in its first test, but isnt that what research is all about? You make mistakes and you learn from them. You have never seen how many American Tridents crashed into sea before their design was proved?
I would be more suspicious of the Indian scientific community if everything they design and test is 100% successful on the first test itself. But then the Indian junta will never understand what R&D means. As long as it doesn't involve me, I expect all Indians to be perfect syndrome!

As for the article, I dont even know where to begin thrashing it...
You know its bull crap when 'eminent scientist' says that Indian missile program originated from US and Russian missile programs and that Israel is helping India. Where do they get this crap from?
And what sort of scientist comments that other eminent scientists are incompetent! Cheap bastard. I bet even the best of american scientists didnt use such terms for NoKo when its rocket failed!

These parameters proved in the presence of international neutral empires when the missile hit the target to extent of centimetres accuracy in the Indian Ocean, the sources said.

ROTFLMAO!!! Neutral Empires??? Is that a frigging cricket march?? So what is he saying... that there is a International ociety that tracks the missiles tests and measures the CEP of missiles and certifies them? What losers!

[VJ]

Agni Designers are incompetent, A painful truth : read it

Non Sense. Success and Failure are part & parcel of a project. It doesn't mean they are incompetent. And u idiot u believe in rubbish articles who enjoy the failure of the others rather there is no sufficient proof on what exactly went wrong:twisted: .



@VJ

[Red Combat]

have them also count the number of successes we have had, that should keep them busy for rest of their lives

[CTC]

Truth is indeed painful and costly. We are in a state of absolute anarchy as far as defence R &D /science is concerened. Mind you I am not supporting any of the words uttered by rubbish scientist of pakistan but indeed it is true that our organisations have forgotten to make research and spend money on managing their own luxuries. STill there are few patriotic and uncorrupted people who sincerely try hard to do something. But painful truth is majority of DRDO R&D organisations spend huge money and do little R&D. My freind VJ open ur eyes and let us be more partical in accepting truth. I would be more happy if it has failed mid way but it is design failure at second stage is a concern. May be we have to learn hard way but r our R&D institutions willing to do that? Are our scientists ready to learn from mistakes?. Knowledge has to be gained from mistakes.

[VJ]

I accept that this country is much corrupted than any other countries. But I dont agree with the scientists being corrupted. The administration could be wrong or corrupted. Sometimes it does happen that during the design some factors may have not been considered or a methodology didn't fit into the project according to the requirements, or the process itself might have been wrong. It does happen buddy. Failures are the stepping stones for success as said by someone.



@VJ

[CTC]

Agni Designers are incompetent, A painful truth : read it

Non Sense. Success and Failure are part & parcel of a project. It doesn't mean they are incompetent. And u idiot u believe in rubbish articles who enjoy the failure of the others rather there is no sufficient proof on what exactly went wrong:twisted: .

@VJ

There is sufficient proof that the design of first stage is wrong as the missile has flew only 12 kM before falling into sea. It has to travel atleast 50 kM befor second stage starts. Also there is every possiblity that some sub-standard materials might have been used in First stage motors which have failed. This might have occured due to oversight ? or due to non-compilance of standards. Why not be sincere and follow all test protocols before going to test flight?. Is it not mistake not to test new compoenents sufficiently before going for test?. We need not get lessons from someone else but should our scientits take it seriously enough. Sufficient prrof will emerge from proper faillure analysis.

[VJ]

Not sure! A Scientist need not have the knowledge of the quality of the materials. Its not his responsibility to evaluate the quality of the products. Its the responsibility of the buyer department who purchases the materials to maintain the standards. Scientist wohi material use karega jo usko diya gaya hai. And he has other major responsibilities as well.



@VJ

[CTC]

Not sure! A Scientist need not have the knowledge of the quality of the materials. Its not his responsibility to evaluate the quality of the products. Its the responsibility of the buyer department who purchases the materials to maintain the standards. Scientist wohi material use karega jo usko diya gaya hai. And he has other major responsibilities as well.

@VJ

Yes scientists need to know the quality of materials, usually all R& D recruits are either engineers or from basic science and they have to read about materials to get their degrees. Buyer departments are only junk run by clerks to do paper work however the recommendations must come from Scientists. It is not mere using materials but also use of proper material which serves the purpose. I remotely read that they do not use normal metals or alloys for motors, instead use some advanced materials. Do u remember columbia has failed because of the tile falling off from the space craft. It isnot normal tile but some advanced materials which protect spacecraft. Imagine if proper thing is n used at exhaust of rocket, it just blasts into pieces. The first nozzle designed by NASA had design problems.But how did Agni earlier versions succeed. They are better designed. Why did they not follow the same path to increase range?. Is it internal compulsions?.

[VJ]

Waht is it u want to conclude?



@VJ

[Mayavi Morpheus]

There is sufficient proof that the design of first stage is wrong as the missile has flew only 12 kM before falling into sea. It has to travel atleast 50 kM befor second stage starts.

Pardon my ignorance, but do you work in DRDO and present at tha launch? The only official statement that came out from DRDO was that the launch was success but flight parameters were not met, hence the test a failure. Rest was speculation. Now please show me your 'sufficient proof' of design failures and while you are at that, can you explain to us mortals how the frigging rockets stage seperation works.



PS: 12 KM was the trajectory height and not distance, but then what do I know,

[labelle]

the test dint go well is something that is a part of the experiment and there are errors that might occur and India is not the first country to face such a problem. the scientist no way can be blamed for this. i read the book wings of fire by our President A P J Abdul Kalam what i felt was that these people(scientists) are very passionate about their work and the work comes first before anything. please remember that the people who work for these organisations are the creme da la creme and not the people who have reached by fluke. they are dedicated to their work.

[CTC]

Please read the links



http://internationalreporter.com/news/read.php?id=1850

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 733336.cms

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060711/main2.htm



Dr. Raj Baldev said, "It is a clear sabotage; enemy is stronger in intelligence commanding some one within our scientists and misdirecting the assembly program. This failure is caused by sabotage and has lowered the image of India who was planning to put unmanned mission to the Moon on one hand and trying to develop a proper delivery system for nuclear weapons on the other; both programs have gone with the winds for the time being?"



"DRDO sources said another reason for the failure could be the use of variety of new technologies. They said the new technologies used in Agni-III included rocket motors and launch control systems"



"Officials here said that although it would be too early to hazard a guess as to what went wrong, it would seem that a design defect prevented the second stage from separating. They said that it was because of this possible defect that the missile couldn’t maintain its intended trajectory and could stay aloft for only five minutes instead of the 15 minutes it was intended to."





It is heartening that our Missile scinetists have progressed to make a deterrent for the country, we are proud of them. But should we be complacent. How is DRDO functioning ?. Are there in higher ups misleading others for variety of reasons?

[Mayavi Morpheus]

It is heartening that our Missile scinetists have progressed to make a deterrent for the country, we are proud of them.

so realization finally dawned on you after being slapped around with facts?

[CTC]

It is heartening that our Missile scinetists have progressed to make a deterrent for the country, we are proud of them.

so realization finally dawned on you after being slapped around with facts?

Mayavi, I am sure you have not read my earlier text. If you do not understand what is happening it is impossible to wake u up from slumber. the test was partially successful and we are proud all these words are fine, how long we keep waiting for proper delivery system for our nukes?. It is some corrupt officials sobotaged the programme for their self gain (please see above articles) Should india take ages to make a missile when first Agni test was done in 1983 , did it take 23 yrs to improve sub-systems. See the progress of ISRO during same period. I respect all our scientists and their efforts but should we wait for teh inevitable to happebn before we act. R we ready for nuke war with pak? IF pak strikes first where is our effective answer to that?.

[CTC]

It is like cat drinking milk with eyes closed. Our position is precarious when compared to pak.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Mayavi, I am sure you have not read my earlier text. If you do not understand what is happening it is impossible to wake u up from slumber.

Exactly! If you have no clue what it takes to make a missile, then you better keep quiet rather than make asinine remarks about the scientific community. Based on your posts it is evident that you have no knowledge of what R&D is, let alone what an IRBM is. Failure is a stepping stone to success.



It is good to ask questions like are our scientists competent, is the management capable of handling complex projects, was there sabotage etc etc, but learn to ask the right questions at the right moment. Question the competency of out scientists when you have learnt that they have been making elementary mistakes. Question the management when you learn that there were no design deficiency.



Now coming to the AgniIII, what makes you think that it is just a bigger version of Agni I tested in 1983? Missiles are not diwali rockets that you add extra propellant to make it go far. No sire, its completely different. Similarly Agni III is a completely different beast compared to Agni I and II. For beginners, Agni III doesnt have fins and it is speculated that it is MIRV. There, that alone takes 20 years of research! It took china 20 years to make MIRV when it was flush with funds and DRDO only has a budget of $500 million year!



Give the scientists some credit, they know what they are doing and that too working on a meagre salary of 10,000 Rs a month where as even a 10th pass call center worker earns twice that much.



Btw, Agni III program did not exist till the late 90's, so it did not take 23 years to develop its sub systems. And even after it was developed, it was not tested for 3 years due to Geo-political compulsions.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

It is like cat drinking milk with eyes closed. Our position is precarious when compared to pak.

If you have inferiority complex when it comes to pak, you should probably see a shrink. Precarious my ass.

[CTC]

It is like cat drinking milk with eyes closed. Our position is precarious when compared to pak.

If you have inferiority complex when it comes to pak, you should probably see a shrink. Precarious my ass.

You idiot seems to be too ignorant to talk about missiles let alone any other advanced things. You fools live in fools paradise thinking. You fool should konw that management does not design misiles fool it is scientits who design. Probably you are too ignorant even to talk about facts.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

You idiot seems to be too ignorant to talk about missiles let alone any other advanced things. You fools live in fools paradise thinking.

I already admitted that I am no rocket scientist. I do not know much about missiles but I do know how hard research is, so I do not comment of the DRDO scientists 'incompetency'. Now, you seem to be very confident that designing an IRBM is like making a diwali rocket. So, please enlighten me about the working of missiles in general and Agni series in particular.

[CTC]

Ignorance is Bliss

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Ignorance is Bliss

Ok, I take it as ' I have no clue, yet I wont stop making a fool of myself'.

Ignorance is bliss indeed.

[paris_dakar]

whatever the pakistani scientist had to say is immaterial to me. we have other questions to ask. how many of you here work in an engineering firm? do you understand what compromises are made to bring a design from sketches and calculations to reality? there are perfect materials out there but can't use perfect materials always, there are issues like cost, availability, behavior etc...we design around the problems. its not the material that needs to be good, its the system, the product that needs to achieve its targets.



We do need to ask some tough questions of our esteemed ministers and the officialdom simply because every Indian is paying for the missiles...every test that fails, every plane that crashes needs to be scrutinised and we need to make sure that failures are not being swept under the carpet.



Has anyone seen the reports in some newsppapers which said that the engineers and scientists were not confident about going through with the test at this time. This test seems more like a political gamble...accoring to those reports. we need to get to the bottom of this....and we should do that because we are paying for it and we are a democracy, they are answerable to us.

[paris_dakar]

Ignorance is Bliss

Ok, I take it as ' I have no clue, yet I wont stop making a fool of myself'.
Ignorance is bliss indeed.

well the point is....non of us can build a rocket but we do know that we need that and that can't drag on. why are you so reticent to even question the reasons for failure. it is your security too, you money too and your right too! two back to back failures for critical programs should raise some eyebrows...Im not saying that we pull up the scientists and evaluate the design or the process but there are their peers who should be given the authority to look into that and make recommendations. you seem to think its no biggie....but it is because of the nature of the program. failure are tolerable but if we don't ask then we are not gonna be sure whether the friggin thing is gonna fly when it is deployed.

[Max]

I guess Edison failed a 1000 times before he could invent a bulb that works.



Whatever these guys have to say, they can shove it up their ass.



Who cares about them. PAK is a shit country.