what does patriotism mean to you?

[pingu]

Pa"tri*ot*ism (?), n. [Cf. F. patriotisme.]

Love of country; devotion to the welfare of one's country; the virtues and actions of a patriot; the passion which inspires one to serve one's country.

There are a number of threads discussing this issue (but in a rather oblique way),and i didnt want to divert them. So i thought we could have a new thread about it.

Im pretty confused about the whole issue of patriotism.i dont think i can be called a patriot.but then again , im not too sure how many people can be...
and (in a mildly uncomfortable way) im rather tempted to reject patriotism as a pretty artificial and strange concept , that has been further mangled by politicians(some) and other fundamentalists..

anyway , just wanted to know what you people think about the whole thing ..[/quote]

[DQ]

Patriotism denotes positive attitudes by a individuals



to their own nation,

to its national homeland,

its culture,

its members,

and to its interests.



The word is derived from the Latin patria, fatherland, which has a much broader meaning than a geographical territory.



Nationalism



Nationalism is an ideology which holds that the nation, ethnicity or national identity is a "fundamental unit" of human social life, and makes certain political claims based upon that belief; above all, the claim that the nation is "the only legitimate basis for the state", and that "each nation is entitled to its own state"



For example

the ideology that held India to-gether was, the utter desire of the people to dethrone a occupying force that had led the natives into Slavery. A united stand taken by the then freedom fighters led by the Father of the nation, regardless of faith, caste, social strata, led to the formation of Independant India.



That every Indian is Proud of.



The Ideology of fanatism now holds a threat to Independant India. The first stone that this idology attacked is to tarnish the image of the father of the Nation. Once that respect is lost the ideology that holds the nation is broken. The desire of freedom is lost and we are then easy prey to the ideology of fanatism.

[Angle]

i think patriotism is an outdated concept.



it is very immature and selfish to have more love for our own country over other countries.



the more patriotic you are = the more you love your country than other countries



in today's world, we need less bias towards other countries. if americans loved iraq as much as they did america, they just wudnt have let so many innocent people in iraq get killed.



the worst example of indian patriotism comes when we talk about pakistan. the more u hate pakistan=the more you love india.



the meaning of patriotism in the dictionary cannot be changed, so our approach towards this concept should change

[Mayavi Morpheus]

in today's world, we need less bias towards other countries. if americans loved iraq as much as they did america, they just wudnt have let so many innocent people in iraq get killed.

Conversely, if Iraqis loved america as much as they loved Iraq, there wouldnt have been any insurgency or blood and do not identify with its culture or land?

[DQ]

Oh so the Americans are in America not Iraq is it?

[OsmaniaBiskit]

Pre-emptive strike

[OsmaniaBiskit]

i think patriotism is an outdated concept.

it is very immature and selfish to have more love for our own country over other countries.

the more patriotic you are = the more you love your country than other countries

in today's world, we need less bias towards other countries. if americans loved iraq as much as they did america, they just wudnt have let so many innocent people in iraq get killed.

the worst example of indian patriotism comes when we talk about pakistan. the more u hate pakistan=the more you love india.

the meaning of patriotism in the dictionary cannot be changed, so our approach towards this concept should change

New Angle

[betty]

i think patriotism is an outdated concept.

it is very immature and selfish to have more love for our own country over other countries.

the more patriotic you are = the more you love your country than other countries

I don't think it is an outdated concept, most people love their parents more than they love other people's parents, that does not mean that they are selfish and immature or outdated.
It just means that in the face of a threat towards both their own country and the other country, a partriot will of course, defend his own country.

in today's world, we need less bias towards other countries. if americans loved iraq as much as they did america, they just wudnt have let so many innocent people in iraq get killed.

Love for one's own country should not be translated as bias against other country.
And America's attack of Iraq had nothing to do with patriotism, or hatred against Irq, it was purely driven by economical gains, namely oil.

the worst example of indian patriotism comes when we talk about pakistan. the more u hate pakistan=the more you love india.

That, of course, is a very wrong notion of patriotism, and I agree if that is called patriotism by some, they are absolutely wrong.
But, if there is a war between India and Pakistan, or even a cricket match (mentioning it as it has come up too many times in this DB) between the two countries, a patriotic Indian is always going to support India and he will be absolutely right in supporting, cheering and defending India.
The same holds true if the opponent is Australia or Sri Lanka.

the meaning of patriotism in the dictionary cannot be changed, so our approach towards this concept should change

What you have talked about here is not love towards your own country but rather hatred towards other countries. That was never the defintion of patriotism.

There is always a difference between less love and hatred.

[Lucifer]

Will quote my favourite cynic, Bernard Shaw:

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.

I think he was right. In very layman terms, that is how patriotism can be defined.

[CtrlAltDel]

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.

good one!

[HH]

Tushar Gandhi: Where Is The Patriotism Online?

The great grandson of the Mahatma has launched his own struggle. And it's about the Internet

"Why should I hide the fact that I belong to India? I'm not ashamed of my country," says Tushar Gandhi, great grandson of the Mahatma. From the freedom struggle to Internet domain names, the spirit lives on in the family as Tushar is vying against all odds to popularise the dot-in (.in) suffix in Internet domains belonging to India.

"I strongly feel that my presence online should also indicate my geographical location," he says. "It's not merely a question of nationalism but also of national identity and pride. And, if it means I have to put in more efforts to get the '.IN' ccTLD (Country Code Top Level Domain), I think it's worth it."

Gandhi has launched mahatma.org.in to pay tribute to the Mahatma, while publicising the .IN suffix. "I was introduced to the Internet by pioneers such as Miheer Mafatlal, K Pandyan and Vijay Mukhi, and I told them of my desire to create a multimedia CD on the life and work of Mahatma Gandhi," he says. "When we decided to opt for a Web site, it was Miheer who explained the fundamentals of domain names to me, which is when I found the .in ccTLD for India."

Why not Mahatma.com? "Mine is not a commercial site. People don't appreciate the fact that, by being specific, we are also classifying our site's philosophy," he replies. ...

Visit:
http://www.mahatma.org.in/

[Mayavi Morpheus]

in today's world, we need less bias towards other countries. if americans loved iraq as much as they did america, they just wudnt have let so many innocent people in iraq get killed.

Conversely, if Iraqis loved america as much as they loved Iraq, there wouldnt have been any insurgency or blood and do not identify with its culture or land?

what happened to my post :-S. I wrote more than that...

[Akshay]

Will quote my favourite cynic, Bernard Shaw:

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it.

I think he was right. In very layman terms, that is how patriotism can be defined.

I find Shaw's definition disappointingly narrow.



Patriotism, at least as I feel it, is definitely not the feelig that my "country" is superior to others. It is a feeling of association with my country. It is like the natural idenitification of one with his/her person, one doesn't need to be the best in anything in the world to have such a feeling. It is a natural feeling to something you consider your indivisable own.



Ofcourse I do disown Shaw's patriotism displayed by many who equate patriotism with delusions of superiority.

[Angle]

my country

my religion

my caste

my family

me



can we please atleast try to think a little less selfishly?



why is our thinking so selfcentered? how can u say its okay to be patriotic(meaning according to dictionary.com) ?



why should u be patriotic? why should u not have the same love for other countries? why should u love your country more? and more?



i say its the same as having more love for the people of your own religion.or caste.

the phenomenon is same. u segregate people on some basis and have more love for a certain group. its all the same. do u disagree?



yes we love our family and parents more than others. we dont even cry when we read abt other families which die in a quake or flood.

we, the human race, is selfish by birth and nature. we are supposed to have survived bcos of that. we already live on other animals and plants by killing them. we are very indifferent to other living species of the world.

we are a selfish lot.

we like ourselves first, our family, our parents.

* i request u not to be proud of this nature of ours.



then u might realise that being proud of loving one's own country or religion or race or watever is nothing but wrong thinking which will not bring about a better world.

[Angle]

akshay,

u posted ur message while i was typing mine. so i didnt read it bfore posting mine. just wanted to let u all know this to avoid miscommunication in the discussion.



also want to make it clear that 'patriotism' in my post only refered to the dictionary.com meaning, not any other interpretation of anyone.

[Akshay]

Angel, I request we do not limit the idea of patritism to http://www.dictionary.com's definition. I don't consider Dictionary.com has the final say on patriotism, though it did have a first say in this thread and provides a good starting point. The term "country" is ill defined and ill suited in this modern world where political boundaries have changed so much in such a short span of time while cross-national cultural, religious and historical affinities survive.

my country
my religion
my caste
my family
me

To add two more to the "my" list:
my ideas
my sense of righteousness.

can we please atleast try to think a little less selfishly?

I have always found it hard to believe that one can be truly unselfish. Even the simplest unselfish act is performed to satisfy the selfish desire to do something good. The mere act of survival demands that every living being be selfish to some extent. I do disagree with gluttonish selfishness, but have no problem with loyalty to what one considers as one's own. One could identify his/her own in many ways: abstract ideas, morals, cross cultures, political boundaries, natural boundaries or anything; be what ever, one has to have some sense of loyalty towards what one considers one's own. This I think is patriotism.

For example you appear to be patriotic to the idea of unselfish thought. Your patriotism is not bound to political boundaries, cultures, castes, religions etc. But still it is patriotism to what you consider to be right.

So patriotism by itself is not wrong. It takes a nasty form only when its boundaries are ill defined and is ill displayed.


Looking selfishness from a different point of view, if we assume
1) everyone is selfish
2) every one thinks logically
3) the best for each is when there is a reasonable stability for all.

Then don't you think (1) and (2) will result in (3), which I think is what you are seeking as an end result of global unselfishness?

I am convinced to an extent (1) is true, and (3) is true as seen from history and human desire. I think the problem lies in assumption (2), not because humans lack logic but because humans by nature are paranoid and the lack of trust causes them to betray (3).

I think selfishness is a highly underrated yet abused attribute whereas unselfishness is an overrated term.

why is our thinking so selfcentered? how can u say its okay to be patriotic(meaning according to dictionary.com) ?

why should u be patriotic? why should u not have the same love for other countries? why should u love your country more? and more?

As far as patriotism to a "country" is concerned:
I do not see anything wrong in saying "I will defend my country". My country might be ill defined in my mind, or may be defined by some brit before I was born, but it still gives me a vague concept to identify myself with.

It is like one's family, you have no choice what family you are born in, but still you will defend it to the extent possible. If you realise your family is at wrong you might try to correct them. But if your family and a neighbor's family are in peril or are fighiting each other and you need to pick one, then probability, logic, psychology, sociology, anthropology and evry other logies say you will save your own family first. Patriotism to one's country is analogous to this, it need not translate into my way or no way or hatred to others' countries.

i say its the same as having more love for the people of your own religion.or caste.
the phenomenon is same. u segregate people on some basis and have more love for a certain group. its all the same. do u disagree?

I agree that it translates into more love for a certain group. But it need not segragate people into groups and need not display disdain toward those you do not love as much.

yes we love our family and parents more than others. we dont even cry when we read abt other families which die in a quake or flood.
we, the human race, is selfish by birth and nature. we are supposed to have survived bcos of that. we already live on other animals and plants by killing them. we are very indifferent to other living species of the world.
we are a selfish lot.
we like ourselves first, our family, our parents.
* i request u not to be proud of this nature of ours.

There is no reason to be proud of this nature, but I don't see the need to feel sorry either.

then u might realise that being proud of loving one's own country or religion or race or watever is nothing but wrong thinking which will not bring about a better world.

[OsmaniaBiskit]

Patriotism is a learned behaviour - we react like Pavlov's dog to certain stimuli. Everything is symbolic or ritualistic. Patriotism is defined by one's own state of mind or 'education' (not only the school kind) in other words well intentioned propaganda.

I think everyone has it easy as all definitions are so abstract or 'fantastic' and do not ask you to make any sacrifices or just act responsibly on daily basis.



May be patriotism should be defined by very specific actions -

Feed 10 hungry kids a day.

Teach 10 illiterate people to read/write each evening.

Join Homeguards and help traffic police maintain traffic or stop some moron from honking near a hospital.

etc.,

[Akshay]

Patriotism is a learned behaviour - we react like Pavlov's dog to certain stimuli. Everything is symbolic or ritualistic.

I fear you are wholesomely rejecting one of the strongest characters of living beings as mere cultivated hallucination.

Patriotism is defined by one's own state of mind or 'education' (not only the school kind) in other words well intentioned propaganda.

Education -positive propaganda if you prefer- in this case is just expanding the idea of what is one's own. For a kid it is easy to associate the school, the street, the family, the house and such every day experiences. But to help the kid associate kidself with the nation one has to help the kid visualise things which cannot be physically experienced. For this such propaganda is helpfull necessity.

I think everyone has it easy as all definitions are so abstract or 'fantastic' and do not ask you to make any sacrifices or just act responsibly on daily basis.

I agree the concept is abstract. But the kind of heroic sacrifices you are talking about, if I understood right, are romantic goals. One need not practice them to show patriotism, and a patriot shouldn't shirk them when such is demanded for what he/she identifies with.

People like Socrates and Washington had their own debates about the right and wrong of their own countries, but they also fought the wars when needed. They were patriotic to their nations while knowing that not everything is right with their nation. Similarly Lincoln's fight against slavery was his patriotism and so was Rosa Park's. So were the blacks patriots who fought for US in WWII while their brethren were still slaves.

Patriotism is not just fighting wars and dying on the battlefield. It is the character to not disassociate in war, word, mind and deed with what one identifies oneself.

May be patriotism should be defined by very specific actions -
Feed 10 hungry kids a day.
Teach 10 illiterate people to read/write each evening.
Join Homeguards and help traffic police maintain traffic or stop some moron from honking near a hospital.
etc.,

Philanthropy, Enlightenment, Voluntary-Service, noble themselves though they are, should not be confused with patriotism.

[OsmaniaBiskit]

Akshay -

Totally agree with you bud. And very eloquent if I may add.

Patriotism is not just fighting wars and dying on the battlefield. It is the character to not disassociate in war, word, mind and deed with what one identifies oneself.

Your examples make sense and kinda reinforce a part of my post above.





"A boy doesn't have to go to war to be a hero; he can say he doesn't like pie when he sees there isn't enough to go around. "

-- Edgar Watson Howe

[OsmaniaBiskit]

I fear you are wholesomely rejecting one of the strongest characters of living beings as mere cultivated hallucination.

I am not rejecting 'patriotism' as a valid and one of the higher forms of human emotion that is not yet corrupted by conflicting human interests (well not to the extent that it is less honorable).



I just think that majority of 'definitions' tend to be unidimensional.

[RK]

Even the simplest unselfish act is performed to satisfy the selfish desire to do something good. The mere act of survival demands that every living being be selfish to some extent.

Rightly said. Even if one is donating everything he earns, he does it because he feels it is the right thing and by doing it, he derives his own happiness and selfworthiness from it. Selfishness shouldn't always mean to work for ones personal growth at the cost of the people around him.



On patriotism:

No doubt there is a thin line between Patriotism and narrow mindedness.

While working for the betterment of people who he feels are his own(at no damage to others) in the name of patriotism is an encouragable thing, at the same time supporting whatever his country does just because he was born there and without any rational thinking is foolishness.



Whether we really need patriotism in our age is a debatable issue, but this concept was a necessity some time back when greedy kings used to conquer their neighbouring kindoms just to accumulate wealth or to earn control/power over a larger territory/population. (whether we still have greedy rulers yearning for power is altogether a different issue )

[pingu]

Patriotism is a learned behaviour - we react like Pavlov's dog to certain stimuli. Everything is symbolic or ritualistic. Patriotism is defined by one's own state of mind or 'education' (not only the school kind) in other words well intentioned propaganda.
I think everyone has it easy as all definitions are so abstract or 'fantastic' and do not ask you to make any sacrifices or just act responsibly on daily basis.

May be patriotism should be defined by very specific actions -
Feed 10 hungry kids a day.
Teach 10 illiterate people to read/write each evening.
Join Homeguards and help traffic police maintain traffic or stop some moron from honking near a hospital.
etc.,

quite a neat post...pretty much second everything said here ..

Philanthropy, Enlightenment, Voluntary-Service, noble themselves though they are, should not be confused with patriotism.

this is what i dont get ... what is the use of patriotism if it is does not imply any one of those things?

how is it different from the warm fuzzy feeling you get when the team your'e rooting for wins?it seems to be the same thing ... and therefore as useless ..

[HH]

Plastic National Flag ... Ban It!

Plastic Patriotism

A campaign to ban plastic flags could be a starting point of a debate on modernity, nationalism and development ...

... a series of art works created by John for a recent week-long exhibition in the city. They were constructions, many of which featured the tri-colour. One construction had a sheaf of mass-manufactured little plastic flags stamped with company logos in the centre of the Ashoka Chakra, and the words "I love" - the kind that sells like hotcakes on Republic and Independence Days, and on days of cricket matches. Another work contained a five-rupee packet of those saffron, white and green thermocol balls that are showered like confetti in place of the traditional rice or flowers.

"The flag produced in plastic is an anti-thesis of the values that it stands for," said John. When he announced: "We must reclaim the flag," what he meant was that like-minded persons should reclaim what the flag represents, and redefine concepts such as "patriotism" and "development", which have come to acquire grossly distorted meanings.

# a campaign to ban plastic national flags could be a richly symbolic starting point of a wider debate on related issues - of modernity, nationalism, and development

*
- WHAT made you think about the flag, John, and plan a campaign to ban its plastic avatar?

C.F. JOHN (C.F.J.): I found it ironic that in Kargil we were trying to throw out intruders from our border, and in the Narmada valley we were trying to throw our own people out from their land. We have not paid attention to a lot of terrible things that are taking place in the country, but we all talk about patriotism and love for the country.

Our national flag is a symbol of the nation's philosophy: self- reliance, freedom, resistance against imperialism, purity, non- violence, inter-connectedness. The natural fibres woven together represent the merging of cultures, identities, skills and perceptions.

The flag in plastic is a perfect symbol of the inauthenticity of our times. The harmful material, the mass manufacture, the marketing of "love for the country", all of it is like a confession of the nation's guilt. ...

Visit:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2001 ... 07063g.htm

[Nationalistic HP]

Akshay....you hit bull's eye straight on. Patriotism is akin to love in a way that it cannot be defined or described with mere words. But you still put it down with that relatively small post of yours. Leaves nothing more to add.



OsmaniaBiskit..A true patriot may not do the things that you've mentioned. But he will do several other things and not do many others because of his love for the country. Why limit the scope of patriotism to just a few parameters.



For example, every true patriot will...



1. Pay all taxes - You probably would feel that this does not denote patriotism on one's part....but then, it does.

2. Help anyone in need in sudden situations. Like a road accident victim, or an old-aged person, or as someone posted a thread recently, a rag-picker who was being heckled by someone.

3. Fight against corruption.

4. Maintain regulations while driving.

5. Keep his sorroundings clean.

6. Save fuel, electricity, water.

7. Prevent the incidence of corrupting socio-political elements wherever he can control them.

8. Vote responsibly.



All these may seem to be very small things, but they go a long way in establishing a great nation.



DQ...what you said about the father of the nation here has shades of extreme Stalinism. The feeling that "If you don't believe in the ideology of the father of the nation, you're not a patriot" is as scary as the ideology you've been condemning all over these boards. Agreed - and there's no doubt about it - that Gandhi was the biggest personality of our freedom struggle. But you must not forget that there were several others too, who had ideologies different from the one propounded by Gandhi and were still vital cogs in the fight for independence. However high Gandhi's pedestal may be, it cannot belittle the contribution of revolutionaries like Bhagat Singh, Azad, Netaji, Lala Lajpat Rai, Tilak etc. who were not known supporters of Gandhi's way of dealing with the Brits.



As far as tarnishing his image is concerned, for me, his legacy is not so petty that it can be tarnished by a few disillusioned people's rhetoric. He is, and will continue to be a symbol of free India, and a strong one at that, the acts of a few notwithstanding. Again, when you say that the ideology that holds the nation is under threat, you tend to underestimate the strength of that very ideology.



At times I get this feeling that your belief in this nation and its strength is very superficial and hence, you get paranoid. Or maybe you're just someone who wants a strong opposition to the current hindu fanatic fringe and are working towards it so that once its ready, you can just sit back and enjoy the fun. Is that your ploy?

[Akshay]

"A boy doesn't have to go to war to be a hero; he can say he doesn't like pie when he sees there isn't enough to go around. "
-- Edgar Watson Howe

Very nice quote.