What is God? - Religion/Philosophy

[Sandeep]

This is another interesting article which I always wanted to discuss. Here is my take again, want to see what you guys think: -



Anything that takes a person away from the material world's grip (praying to anything can do that) - and our perception of the world even momentarily, does the job of God. It brings out your own powers from within, which comes out only when you stop believing that you are a creature that has no control over the world. Even believing that a stone statue of Shiva would be capable of changing the universe and giving you peace from the problems you have, is enough to take you out of the grip of the world as it exists in your view, including the existence of yourself (this is the concept of "maya").



To that extent, believing in Sachin can indeed give you Godly powers, if you are able to believe well enough. The kicker is that it is not easy to believe in anything that is not traditionally considered powerful and "prayable" to. Thus the "concepts" that are commonly accepted as Gods, become powerful. It is all just a way to bring out from within you the powers to affect the universe's course.



For instance people believe that Madurai Meenakshi is more powerful than the same Devi who is in some other temple. In other words, they are able to pray better at Meenakshi temple with more belief - and thus get more results from their prayers. It is all in the belief. Indian scriptures explained this quite logically.



There was possibly even a time in our history when people had so much more "faith" than they do now, and the "Shastra" (theory) worked more demonstrably - the theory of "powers from within" brought out using implements such as temple statues based on "concepts" such as Krishna or Rama (the concepts themselves becoming powerful through historical and anecdotal evidences of things these two kings did during their lives)



Having faith in "concepts" like Krishna or Rama is totally logical and is recommended as a scientific way to lead a good life of satsfaction and productivity according to the scriptures (you notice that I keep saying "concept" and refuse to use the word God in the current argument, to avoid confusion with the ultimate undefinable form).



Believing in Saraswathi was the best way to focus one's abilities towards education and music. Believing that Saraswathi would be there to give you knowledge helped you to focus your minds (especially in the days when knowledge itself came to a large extent from one's own thinking, prompted by one's Guru). This was the scientifc system India had.



Indians invented mathematics, calculus, etc, mostly after intense prayers and meditation and focusing their minds. Not by sitting under a tree and having an apple fall on your head. Do you know that the Bhagavatam describes in complete detail the formation of a fetus and its developments, all the way from immediately after the egg is fertilized by a sperm - astonishingly correctly according to modern medicine? Nobody had a microscope to study this then. How did Indians know it?



Well, there was a system that allowed them to go beyond our belief that the world is one that we can understand only through our five senses. The world is defined by us all collectively (this is also "maya"), but each of us are supposed to be "individuals" which by definition makes us incapable of touching the definitions (or reference frames) within which we are. We are supposed to be individuals who do not connect to the rest of the universe other than through our physical body and our senses - this part of the "definitions" was understandably very strong - otherwise individual life cannot take shape!



Well, if we can forget that we even exist, which happens to some extent in prayer and meditation, we can indeed be "touching" the reference frames (look at them as mathematical equations that define us all collectively - in a pure physics sense). Or even changing the refernce frame - ie,affecting the world around us. Any of us can do it. Some have brain wiring which allow a lot more of it. They are the spiritual ones, who can forget their own existence and be part of the universal definitions and even change them. The easiest way to go beyond our sense of "self" (and the associated limitedness and powerlessness) is through believing in something else' ability to effect changes or give us power. Some of the humans who were able to truly go beyond themselves became philosphers and scientists - because they understood and felt the "definitions of the world" by simply thinking! -- Without the need for physical/material experimentation for scientific undertsanding of even physical phenomena. Physical experimentation itself is a western concept (though it is so deep in our minds now as "scientific" people, that you probably do not even understand what I am saying here at all!!!)



Then there were those who could go beyond themselves, touch and understand the definitions of the universe that exists collectively across us, and even change the definitions. ie, lift a mountain, or jump across an ocean. Krishna, or Hanuman under Rama's influence. They became useful later as "concepts" to pray for. [There are some extra details like who came to be considered at the highest level of such "concepts" - ie, the avatars, but I will leave them out]



The point I should mention is that this is all exactly as explained in the scriptures. This was the science. You will hardly find a contradiction in any of these. The only thing is that one needs to understand that there are powers within you to affect the world. These are part of how we have defined the universe. You can call it the "maya" of the God, or "maya" of the universe, or "maya" by all of us collectively. The same thing. This became some sort of unacceptable thing only when the people from outside India thought strictly in a "material world" where we exist, and then a spiritual world controlled by a "God" or something that is beyond us. That is not what Indian science said.



If you do not have multiple "concepts" to believe in, the ability of individuals to send their own lives in different productive directions will be affected. Or one has to make a clear demarcation between the material world and follow a material life based on physical science and not based on beliefs/faith, and a spiritual world which is kept separate where you pray to God to magically affect the material universe. Christianity, Islam, etc do this. Indian concept would not say that anything these religions say is wrong. It will simply say that if you believe in Jesus (actually the Father, Son and the Holy ghost concept) and follow Bible, you will indeed receive all the manifestations of what Bible says you would receive. It does not contradict Indian scientific theories.



You will notice that I kept calling it Indian science/philosophy. That is what it is. It is not a religion. I do not call it "Hinduism" either. It simply explained what the possibilities are, on how to live a life. Various beliefs, temples, faiths, and folklore emerged in India over time. At one time most of India had even moved away from the faith systems, because of the fights between followers of different faiths - and many turned to Buddhism etc too, due to perceived conflicts with the Vedic science and the common life's rituals. That is when Shankaracharya had to reiterate to people the true meaning of the orginal science, with "Adwaita" - about one ultimate "undefinable" which can be attained if we can go past the limiting definitions of our material universe.

[CtrlAltDel]

i have no patience to read it all but i read enuf to guess what u r trying to say.



well....abt my opinion...i believe some power somewhere controls things...but i refuse to give a name to that power.



what is that "power"...? is there an entity called "God" out there? is God an alien? no one knows. but IMO, most people believe in whatever God they do coz they have been taught to by their elders, not coz they themselves felt something.



and IMO, religion is just a way of life formulated by humans to worship a 'God'.



main thing about my belief is that i do not believe in prayers and rituals.



prayer is usually a song or poem to praise a 'God'. believers say that unless one prays God wud punish. i do not agree with this.



assume u are working under a manager. if he's a decent and good manager, u just need to work hard, complete tasks on time and interact well with yr co-workers for him to notice you and promote your career.



what if u were asked to praise and flatter him if u needed a promotion or raise? wud u be happy with that boss?



similarly i believe, prayers are just a way of flattering the Big Boss above - a kinda apple polishing. if God existed and was as benevolent as scriptures say, He wud bless u if u lead a proper life without hurting or harming others. He wont need u to sing his praise claiming He is the greatest, He is the best, He is the ultimate and so on (this is what most prayers of all religions say).



i never pray, i dont do any rituals, i dont follow religious dos n donts...but AFAIK, i have never intentionally harmed or thought ill of others. so i am confident that whatever power is watching me, it wont harm me in anyway

[ycr007]

more or less agree with cad on this.All my life I've steadfastly refused to believe that there is something that controls our fate and there is any entity far superior from man who has the powers to alter one's life.My belief has always centred upon my elders whom I respect and in front of them i never say out loud that i don't believe in God.Everyone is entitled to one's own ideas and beliefs and i have never tried to influence nor i have been influenced myself.



Even now i visit places of worship with my folks but quietly sit in a corner and leave with the others when they've completed their rituals.



PPl around me talk about fate and God's will and 'Hathon/mathe ki lakeerein' and all that but I'm of the opinion that one's fate is in onw's own hands.Yes,there's that odd element of luck that plays a bit part but not always.



Philosophy an religion are something that are near yet far.For me philosophy comes into play where logic has taken a backseat.

[Sandeep]

Nice to hear that there are people who still think before doing something. Anyways would like to hear opinions from few girls too. From what I have observed it seems to me that they are more devotional and do all this pooja stuff more than men and boys.

[rock_26iin]

I think that religion wasn't cut out to be the way it is potrayed now-a-days. It just started off as today's "fairy-tales" where there are morals hidden behind the story and tell us a better way to lead our life. Over the years, these slowly reached a myth like state and then went on to become epics as told today. So, 100 years down the line, probably Harry Potter will be our new god and Frodo will be the other god, get the point? Therefore, I believe that religion is just to guide us onto the right path, not something we should devote our life to and believe that we have to defend it and fight against anything said against it. But then again, thats just my theory



^^From an old post I already made on the DB.



About the fate factor, I do believe in fate, but I believe that one's fate is what he deserves. What he did in his life, decides what he gets out of it. That's the only fair exchange that can exist between the two.

[Xeno]

i have no patience to read it all but i read enuf to guess what u r trying to say.

well....abt my opinion...i believe some power somewhere controls things...but i refuse to give a name to that power.

what is that "power"...? is there an entity called "God" out there? is God an alien? no one knows. but IMO, most people believe in whatever God they do coz they have been taught to by their elders, not coz they themselves felt something.

and IMO, religion is just a way of life formulated by humans to worship a 'God'.

main thing about my belief is that i do not believe in prayers and rituals.

prayer is usually a song or poem to praise a 'God'. believers say that unless one prays God wud punish. i do not agree with this.

assume u are working under a manager. if he's a decent and good manager, u just need to work hard, complete tasks on time and interact well with yr co-workers for him to notice you and promote your career.

what if u were asked to praise and flatter him if u needed a promotion or raise? wud u be happy with that boss?

similarly i believe, prayers are just a way of flattering the Big Boss above - a kinda apple polishing. if God existed and was as benevolent as scriptures say, He wud bless u if u lead a proper life without hurting or harming others. He wont need u to sing his praise claiming He is the greatest, He is the best, He is the ultimate and so on (this is what most prayers of all religions say).

i never pray, i dont do any rituals, i dont follow religious dos n donts...but AFAIK, i have never intentionally harmed or thought ill of others. so i am confident that whatever power is watching me, it wont harm me in anyway

You impress me dude!!

[talky]

i m not interested in reading biggg articles

[spamtaneous]

i m not interested in reading biggg articles

like wise..

[MrPhoebs]

Things that can be discussed by two or more parties without there ever being a clear cut solution or end in sight.



1) Existence of god

2) Who is better girls or boys

3) The Nature Of the Universe(beginning to end)

4) Pakistan And India(This might be resolved in a few millenia)

5) Isarael And Palestine(This too might be resolved in a few millenia)

6) Why the overwhelming majority of tollywood and bollywood movies suck

[Viquar]

Well, I would like to appreciate Mr.Sandeep and others of those who



feel the presence of God Almighty in this materialistic age.



I think that Mr.Sandeep was not able to clearly define that, was he



trying to attest the presence of god or was he trying to attest that



there is no god,and its only our hearts that make believe. According



to his opinion the power of God is decided by the degree of belief in



human hearts. The bottom line of his article is that "The presence

of God is only what human hearts Percept".



Mr. Sandeep seems to be a beleiver and promoter of Pantheism=a



metaphysical and religious position in which "God is everything and



everything is God.". In this way neither does he deny the existence of



god nor does he attests. Pantheistic believers are a section of people



who doubt the presence of god but still they feel that there has to be



someone to rely on, so they make thier own Gods and say that ,"Its my



belief that makes it a god".



On the other hand we have people like rock_26iin,ycr007 & CtrlAltDel



who are different tastes of Atheism=Disbelief in or denial of the

existence of God. The First thing that I would like to advise any



good atheist friend of mine is that why don't you get air-dropped in



the sahara desert one day and by night fall I guarantee you that you



will be a believer.What I want to say is that when a person is



completely cut-off from this world in no time does he feels the



presence of god.



Athiest and Materialistic philosophers have long tried to prove that



this universe is just a coincidence that happened millions and



millions of years ago which lead to our present state. If you analyze



this statement scientifically and mathematically its similar to saying



that ,A wind blew and gathered particles which lead to the creation of



a Boeing 747 Jumbo Jet by chance. If anybody say that they do not



beleive in god so they must first observe the miracle in their own birth.



Was it you who had decided the conjugation of a specific sperm of your

father to your mother's egg.

Was it you or your parents who decided your sex.

Was it you who decided the day and time of your birth(Normal).

Was it in your will to suckle or not to suckle your mother's milk.

Is it you who have been deciding to breath from the day you were born.

Is it you who have been deciding to blink your eyes everyday.

Is it in your will to start and stop your heart.



These are just a few among a million functions in our body that we do



not have any authority upon. This is just our own body, if we try to



observe each and everything around us ,our lifetime isn't enough for



it. There are many million complex functions in this universe that go



on smoothly, without our awareness.Can you Imagine a complex system



of this magnitude being run without a controller. It is God who is



controlling all these functions without a delay of a millionth of a



second.My friend CtrlAltDel has gone to an extent of calling himself



GOD "The Supreme One".Can you show any similarity in you that makes



you feel you are god.



And for my pantheistic friends, can you imagine a nation ruled by



numerous rulers all having diverse qualities and diverse attitudes.



This universe wouldn't have been so balanced if there were more than



one god.Our existence is due to God and not the God's existence due to



us.



If anybody here is familiar with computer terminology I would like to



explain that, we are just an instance of an object(Program) running in



the memory(RAM) which is being programmed and controlled by the



Supreme Programmer-GOD who knows our beginning and our end.He



knows our properties and attributes more better than us.As long as our



program is running, a log file is being created according to our



deeds. the day when our program performs an illegal exception and



shuts down, our log file will be the evidence of how good or bad



program we were.



Finally I would like to say that I beleive in the only Monotheistic



religion in this world which is ISLAM.Monothiesm means believing in



the oneness or unity of God.And the word MUSLIM means ,submitting to



the will of God who likes himself to be called ALLAH.ALLAH is an



arabic word which has no gender and has no plural.Muslims have to



believe in the oneness of ALLAH and beleive in teachings of his



prophets(Abraham,Isaac,Ishmael....Moses,Jesus and Muhammad).And



believe in life-after-death and the day of Judgement.Quran is the book



revealed to prophet Muhammed by Allah in which there are the historic



events,scientific facts and rules & regulations for human beings to



lead a successful life.Anybody who intends to know about Islam must



read the Quran and not see the non-practicing Muslims and make a



wrong image of Islam.



I hope my friends got my message upto some extent, and expect your



views on this topic.



Thank You.

[KK]

phew. ... too many lengthy posts ... herez something that I want to point out



there are 2 categories of atheists,

- who lost faith becoz of some bad past experience

- those who are looking for some concrete proof of existence



I find the second category of ppl to be silly. The concept of god brings control in our lives. Things like guilt & morality exist becoz of god. Non-belief in god wud only bring choas!

[Sandeep]

Viquar thanks for posting your thoughts in such a detailed fashion.

In this way neither does he deny the existence of

god nor does he attests

It is not what I say! This is what Hinduism states. It is a very complex concept. For all those who think god is some physical form: -



A lot of what is written and said are human explanations of what they knew (and some Rishis experienced it to a large extent). The science/logic came from that, but you still have to explain it in physical universe's terms. How do you define in physical world's terms, the ultimate God that is really there only when the universe disappears and converges to it?



So, what you have to do is to logically think about how/what is meant by the stories and legends and also scriptural prescriptions in gIta, upnishads etc.



If you accept the simultaneous (or almost circular) logic that God is there and you are there, that you are part of the ultimate God, but the ultimate God cannot be there when you are there, and that you could still have the manifestations of God's work through prayer/tapas/faith, but also that you do not ever become God unless you disappear in Moksha/Nirvana or the universe disappears into God - then everything fits in nicely.



Isn't that almost atheism? Yes it is - but only to those who believe in a separate God (or worse, a separate God who has a beard and wears flowing white clothes). For the others, it is just the science and logic of the world.



But that logic also explains how you have the ability to have or feel the concept of "God" with you, and use that for a better life - and you also know that it is very easy to believe in "God" because everybody else also needs "God" and believes in "God". You can also believe in "a God", or different "Gods" and that would work too. It all depends on the strength of your faith/belief. And with your own belief, you can affect if not control the course of the universe around you and what happens to you. You may choose not to believe much in "God" and your may not get much from that concept (the Indian philosophy will not tell you that there is anything wrong in it - though many Hindus would disagree with me on that). If you believe in "God", then Godliness will be with you. Which one do you prefer? -- the powerlessness of believing that "God" is not there, or the power from believing that "God" is there. The Indian philosophy leaves you there. That is the beauty of the Indian philosophy.



That does not mean that one has to stop thinking of "God"? The concepts of prayers and bhajans and worship are all very useful in life. I pray to my ishTadEvatas (favorite God concepts) like Padmanabha or Ayyappa or Saraswati. I know the manifestations of my ishTadEvatas will be there when I do that. But I also know that I am the one who is invoking them and what I will get from my belief is only as good as how much belief I have. But, isn't that more difficult to believe, when you know that it is all from you yourself? Wouldn't that affect the strength of your belief? Yes, it may, but that is counterbalanced by self-doubts raised from having to accept a prescribed form of worship or belief, with associated questions that have only one answer - "because God said so". So you win some, you lose some, in believing in Indian philosophy as opposed to other religions.

[CtrlAltDel]

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You impress me dude!!

thanQ!!!

Mr. Sandeep seems to be a beleiver and promoter of Pantheism=a metaphysical and religious position in which "God is everything and everything is God.". In this way neither does he deny the existence of god nor does he attests. Pantheistic believers are a section of people who doubt the presence of god but still they feel that there has to be someone to rely on, so they make thier own Gods...

i disagree there...pantheists do believe in God but they feel the presence of God in all of His creations. they are free to worship what they feel most comfortable about and what means the most in their lives.

On the other hand we have people like rock_26iin,ycr007 & CtrlAltDel who are different tastes of Atheism...[/i]hey! i am not an athiest....i believe that some entity does exist that controls everything. i just refuse to pray and follow religious dictats.

I would like to advise any good atheist friend of mine is that why don't you get air-dropped in the sahara desert one day and by night fall I guarantee you that you will be a believer.What I want to say is that when a person is completely cut-off from this world in no time does he feels the presence of god.

yes...i agree. the concept of god and religion is a good moral support for people especially when they face adverse circumstances. it brings psychological comfort with the feeling that someone out there cares for me...

My friend CtrlAltDel has gone to an extent of calling himself GOD "The Supreme One".Can you show any similarity in you that makes you feel you are god.

:lol: well...my post count for one....
its the title FH gave me....

...only Monotheistic religion in this world which is ISLAM...

arent Judaism and the ancient Zoroastrianism monotheistic too?



those analogies abt rulers and computers was good, but here i must add an anology too: pantheism provides minor Gods to take care of various things just like any modern government has ministers with various portfolios for administrative convenience... ...all reporting to one Big Boss.



a clarification here: Hinduism is "advaita" or "sanatana dharma" where there is only one nameless and formless God called the BRAHMAN (NOT to be confused with the Brahmin caste). thsi God is believed to manifest in various forms. all the other Gods that hindus worshiop are nothing but various manifestations of this One God. the Shakti cult of hinduism believes that the BRAHMAN is a female entity. the mainstream hinduism doesnt ascribe any sex to BRAHMAN., but they worship any male or female manifestation(s).

[mark]

phew. ... too many lengthy posts ... herez something that I want to point out

there are 2 categories of atheists,
- who lost faith becoz of some bad past experience
- those who are looking for some concrete proof of existence

I find the second category of ppl to be silly. The concept of god brings control in our lives. Things like guilt & morality exist becoz of god. Non-belief in god wud only bring choas!

3rd catagory:

- Those who find the concept of god unnecessary (occam's razor)



let me put it this way (as i think i have before here)



lets say the knowledge of science (physical and biological) is X

and the Nature of the Universe is U

and the "God component" or the bits we need God to explain is G

then

X + G = U



As science as a body of work becomes more comprehensive and explains more and more about the nature of the universe we need a smaller and smaller G. 300 years ago we couldn't explain the origin of diverse species on the planet, thanks to Darwin we now have a satisfying and complete model for the evolution of life on earth. 100 years ago we couldn't explain discrepencies in the orbits of planets (which seemed to disobey Newtons laws of motion), thanks to Einstien's two theories of relativity we can explain the motion of large objects competely. 70 years ago we couldn't explain why small particles disobeyed Enstien's theorys, thanks to Quantum Physics we can now explain the motion of small particles.



What I am saying is that G is tending to zero.

[CtrlAltDel]

thats a nice theory mark....a food for thot for sure...

[agonys requiem]

since its hard not to get profane and spew forth righteous anger .... these topics do tht to me...



Close-to-complete Ideology and Religion Shit List

God only knows !!?!



* Taoism: Shit happens.



* Confucianism: Confucius say, "Shit happens."



* Buddhism: If shit happens, it isn't really shit.



* Zen Buddhism: Shit is, and is not.



* Zen Buddhism #2: What is the sound of shit happening?



* Hinduism: This shit has happened before.



* Islam: If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.



* Islam #2: If shit happens, kill the person responsible.



* Islam #3: If shit happens, blame Israel. (this is my personal fav )



* Catholicism: If shit happens, you deserve it.



* Protestantism: Let shit happen to someone else.



* Presbyterian: This shit was bound to happen.



* Episcopalian: It's not so bad if shit happens, as long as you serve the right wine with it.



* Methodist: It's not so bad if shit happens, as long as you serve grape juice with it.



* Congregationalist: Shit that happens to one person is just as good as shit that happens to another.



* Unitarian: Shit that happens to one person is just as bad as shit that happens to another.



* Lutheran: If shit happens, don't talk about it.



* Fundamentalism: If shit happens, you will go to hell, unless you are born again. (Amen!)



* Fundamentalism #2: If shit happens to a televangelist, it's okay.



* Fundamentalism #3: Shit must be born again.



* Judaism: Why does this shit always happen to us?



* Calvinism: Shit happens because you don't work.



* Seventh Day Adventism: No shit shall happen on Saturday.



* Creationism: God made all shit.



* Secular Humanism: Shit evolves.



* Christian Science: When shit happens, don't call a doctor - pray!



* Christian Science #2: Shit happening is all in your mind.



* Unitarianism: Come let us reason together about this shit.



* Quakers: Let us not fight over this shit.



* Utopianism: This shit does not stink.



* Darwinism: This shit was once food.



* Capitalism: That's MY shit.



* Communism: It's everybody's shit.



* Feminism: Men are shit.



* Chauvinism: We may be shit, but you can't live without us...



* Commercialism: Let's package this shit.



* Impressionism: From a distance, shit looks like a garden.



* Idolism: Let's bronze this shit.



* Existentialism: Shit doesn't happen; shit IS.



* Existentialism #2: What is shit, anyway?



* Stoicism: This shit is good for me.



* Hedonism: There is nothing like a good shit happening!



* Mormonism: God sent us this shit.



* Mormonism #2: This shit is going to happen again.



* Wiccan: An it harm none, let shit happen.



* Scientology: If shit happens, see "Dianetics", p.157.



* Jehovah's Witnesses: >Knock< >Knock< Shit happens.



* Jehovah's Witnesses #2: May we have a moment of your time to show you some of our shit?



* Jehovah's Witnesses #3: Shit has been prophesied and is imminent; only the righteous shall survive its happening.



* Moonies: Only really happy shit happens.



* Hare Krishna: Shit happens, rama rama.



* Rastafarianism: Let's smoke this shit!



* Zoroastrianism: Shit happens half on the time.



* Church of SubGenius: BoB shits.



* Practical: Deal with shit one day at a time.



* Agnostic: Shit might have happened; then again, maybe not.



* Agnostic #2: Did someone shit?



* Agnostic #3: What is this shit?



* Satanism: SNEPPAH TIHS.



* Atheism: What shit?



* Atheism #2: I can't believe this shit!



* Nihilism: No shit.



* And of course we must add...Alcoholics Anonymous: Shit happens-one day at a time!