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Giriraj Kishore/VHP thinks its ANTI HINDU ..ROTFL but why..

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Do you think that VHP should control Hindus at such a personal level?

Yes I am a fanatic , I believe it should.
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Giriraj Kishore/VHP thinks its ANTI HINDU ..ROTFL but why..

by Xeno » Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:53 pm

Circumcision:It suits Hindus also but the VHP is dead against and says it will kill any Hindu who practices it .. :lol: :lol: Why is VHP into hindus life at such a personal level.. I mean whats going on.Hillariuos.. :lol:



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Circumcision:Govt wants Hindus to practice it but is dead scared by the VHP who wants to control Hindus at a personal level



http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 191482.cms



NEW DELHI: Fear of raking up a communal controversy by VHP has made the health ministry keep mum about an international study which suggests that circumcised men are less prone to HIV infection.



While the study - which says HIV rates among those not circumcised are two to eight times higher than in those groups which practice circumcision - may have a significant bearing on the country's AIDS-prevention programme, government seems to be keeping a distance from it lest it is accused of 'appeasement.'



Conducted by France's National AIDS Research Agency in South Africa between 2002 and 2005, findings of the study were made public on July 26 at the 3rd International AIDS conference on HIV treatment in Rio de Janeiro.



Indian officials, who were present at the conference, agree that circumcision is a hygienic practice but they are loath to be seen as endorsing it because of its strong association with Muslims.



Speaking to TOI, a senior official conceded as much: "Over 25% of people in Europe go for circumcision for protection against AIDS. But in India, we cannot encourage it because of its association with Muslims. Leave alone implementing it, even agreeing with the study would mean being attacked by Hindus. Then, we also don't want to make the bulk of the Muslim population feel that they can be safe with unprotected sex."



Ministry officials refer to the experience of Richard Feachem, executive director of Geneva-based Global Fund to Fight AIDS.



Recently, Feachem received thousands of hate mails when he made a statement in Paris, backed by a study, that he expected the epidemic to grow faster among Hindus because they didn't practise circumcision. One sharp reaction had come from BP Singhal of the BJP.



"This is obnoxious. We are not going to tolerate such remarks made against Hindus," Singhal had said in protest against Feachem's remark.



Even health minister A Ramadoss received ...

a letter from VHP leader Giriraj Kishore seeking to know whether India had commissioned a similar study.



"We did receive a letter from (him). We have also replied to him. No such tests are taking place in India," a ministry official said.



On condition of anonymity, officials also cited figures to show how Muslim countries, where circumcision is prevalent, have very low number of AIDS patients.



"We strongly believe that the AIDS figures in Muslim countries are extraordinarily low because of circumcision. While 0.92% of the adult population in India is HIV+, the number is 0.1% in Iran, Indonesia and Pakistan, 0.2% in Bangladesh and 0.4% in Malaysia. Circumcision can prevent six to seven out of 10 potential HIV infections," another official added.



Using caution, officials also pointed out that circumcision of men will not stop women from getting the disease. "At present, 40% of all AIDS patients are women. So Muslim men are still vulnerable."



The French agency circumcised about half of 3,000 subjects for the study, while the rest remained uncircumcised. After 21 months, 51 members of the uncircumcised group had contracted HIV while only 18 members of the circumcised group had the disease.



"There had always been theories that male circumcision prevented AIDS, but this was the first study using control trials. Though the Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS took considerable interest in the results of the trial, UNAIDS has said it is too early to encourage widespread circumcision as a way to prevent the spread of AIDS. Lately, there has been heightened interest in male circumcision from governments in a number of African countries," an official said.



Researchers believe circumcision helps cut the risk of infection because the foreskin is covered in HIV 1 cells that the virus easily infects. At present, at least three more studies are underway to confirm the effectiveness of circumcision.



WHO is also working on guidelines for qualified medical personnel to conduct safe circumcision as demand for the operation has started to increase in the West.
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by lonewolf » Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:10 am

Circumcised men are less prone to HIV, but it doesn't mean they are immune to it. This is a very stupid argument by pro-circumcision persons.



When you have sex with anyone, leave alone an HIV infected person, more than your physical erosion, its your morals that are degraded. Circumcision or condoms won't create a shield against what you are getting yourself into. But let me leave this here since we have another thread for sex outside marriage.



Now, the government has many priorities, and it is obvious that circumcision is a low one. There are more important ones that are needed at the moment like the Common Civil Code. If this itself cannot be implemented, who cares if people have foreskin or not? VHP and RSS are organisations that just want to create havoc, but seriously they won't be necessary in this case.



Circumcision has *never* been mandatory except in Muslim and Jewish societies. Even in the US, the doctors have to take written permission from new born babies in order to circumcise them.



So whats your point in supporting the option for forcing circumcision on people?
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by lonewolf » Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:13 am

lonewolf wrote:When you have sex with anyone, leave alone an HIV infected person, more than your physical erosion, its your morals that are degraded.




Heck I was referring only to anyone outside marriage :oops:
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by Xeno » Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:16 am

lonewolf wrote:Circumcised men are less prone to HIV, but it doesn't mean they are immune to it. This is a very stupid argument by pro-circumcision persons.

When you have sex with anyone, leave alone an HIV infected person, more than your physical erosion, its your morals that are degraded. Circumcision or condoms won't create a shield against what you are getting yourself into. But let me leave this here since we have another thread for sex outside marriage.

Now, the government has many priorities, and it is obvious that circumcision is a low one. There are more important ones that are needed at the moment like the Common Civil Code. If this itself cannot be implemented, who cares if people have foreskin or not? VHP and RSS are organisations that just want to create havoc, but seriously they won't be necessary in this case.

Circumcision has *never* been mandatory except in Muslim and Jewish societies. Even in the US, the doctors have to take written permission from new born babies in order to circumcise them.

So whats your point in supporting the option for forcing circumcision on people?




No I am not spporting it ,take a look at the situation ,even though its a study conducted by UN the govt doent endorse it becuase it will upset VHP,whats kinda excuse is that ,hell no I dont want hindus to practice it,but is the govt controlled or scared of such organizations,is it a terrorist organization ..VHP that govt has to take it to consideration before taking a decision..
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by Mayavi Morpheus » Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:17 am

mmm... why is it such a surprise to you? What if the results were opposite and govt. brought out a law that all circumcissions should stop. Would you still be posting here?
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by Xeno » Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:22 am

Mayavi Morpheus wrote:mmm... why is it such a surprise to you? What if the results were opposite and govt. brought out a law that all circumcissions should stop. Would you still be posting here?




We are not talking about a law here but endorsing a view..think about it these two completely different things befor eyou jump to conclusion,personally I dont think anybody has any cotrol over anyones pesonal choices be it govt or VHP..
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by lonewolf » Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:29 am

Xeno wrote:No I am not spporting it ,take a look at the situation ,even though its a study conducted by UN the govt doent endorse it becuase it will upset VHP,whats kinda excuse is that ,hell no I dont want hindus to practice it,but is the govt controlled or scared of such organizations,is it a terrorist organization ..VHP that govt has to take it to consideration before taking a decision..




Three years ago I worked with a bunch of hardcore republican journalists who were heavily pro-circumcision (you'll know if you're into political circles). They are the ones who have implemented circumcision in America. Most of the major lawmakers in the US (unofficial ones) are also Jewish and they create rules like this. Thankfully, circumcision is not as widespread in Europe.



There are positive and negative things about circumcision, but the HIV aspect, which is supposed to be the most important issue, is for people who are into promiscous sex. If you lead a moral and hygenic life, you don't need to even consider circumcision. Of course, if it is a religious issue for Muslims and Jews and Christians in the Philippines, go ahead.



What the UN says is mainly what the Jewish lawmakers in America are saying. These same people say a lot of other things which would hardly make sense. Medically, wine is considered good for health. Assuming you are a devout Muslim, I don't think you would ever take that wine statement into consideration.



Now about our government; darn its a goverment ruled by a puppet prime minister and controlled by others with different ethnic and religious backgrounds especially one who won't understand anything with an Indian mindset. What do you expect from them? Its for the people to ignore organisations like the VHP. The RSS has created nuisance every February 14 and "banned it", but do you think people will listen to them?
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by Mayavi Morpheus » Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:17 pm

Xeno wrote:No I am not spporting it ,take a look at the situation ,even though its a study conducted by UN the govt doent endorse it becuase it will upset VHP,whats kinda excuse is that ,hell no I dont want hindus to practice it,but is the govt controlled or scared of such organizations,is it a terrorist organization ..VHP that govt has to take it to consideration before taking a decision..


FYI, the study is not yet published in any medical journal. It is not performed on all races, jsut africans, who, earlier studies showed, are more prone to HIV than any other race. And the results of previous study were exactly opposite of this one

Previous studies have linked circumcision with increased HIV infection.


http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8473838/

and you already want the government to endorse this view and post this

Circumcision:It suits Hindus also but the VHP is dead against and says it will kill any Hindu who practices it

No where in the report did I find that VHP threatened to kill hindus who practice circumcision, It seems to come out of ur...

personally I dont think anybody has any cotrol over anyones pesonal choices be it govt or VHP..

Yes. What one does with his d*ck shld be his own personal choice. Neither government nor religion shld have a say in it.

Why is VHP into hindus life at such a personal level.. I mean whats going on.Hillariuos.. Laughing




VHP is welcome to have their own views, it doesnt have the power to influence common folks lifestyle because Hindus dont live by the book.
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by CtrlAltDel » Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:31 pm

xeno...see my reply in the duplicate thread u created on the same subject!



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by Mayavi Morpheus » Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:33 pm

CtrlAltDel wrote:Jai Shree Ram...;)




Jai shree ram :wink:
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by Xeno » Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:40 pm

Mayavi Morpheus wrote:
CtrlAltDel wrote:Jai Shree Ram...;)


Jai shree ram :wink:




Good , I got you guys to say Jai Shree Ram ,earlier you guys were saying Jai Giriraj Kishore and Jai Praveen Togadia...
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by CtrlAltDel » Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:43 pm

CtrlAltDel wrote:xeno...see my reply in the duplicate thread u created on the same subject!
ok...for everyone's convenience, lemme post that here again:

circumcision is something personal...no one can DEMAND that people not undergo (or undergo) it....who is GK to us what to do..

in hinduism there is no religious leader who's word is considered binding on anyone. its upto the individual whether to follow what they say or not.
and VHP is definitely not a representative of hindus, tho they have grandly named themselves as so.

hindus can freely and publicly show the finger to any so-called religious leader and no one can do anything about it.
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by Xeno » Mon Aug 08, 2005 9:55 am

CtrlAltDel wrote:hindus can freely and publicly show the finger to any so-called religious leader and no one can do anything about it.




Bwahahaha.. keep them coming CAD we need reformists like you otherwise we would have still had SATI being practiced ,where are widow will be put in pyre of her dead husband, may be we would have had online SATI bookings ,something on the lines of http://www.onlinesati.com ,now dont try to click on it .....its only that reformists chage the socitey and not bigots .....



WE had a recent case of SATI in Rajasthan where all the villagers went to pray at the pyre site where the widow was forced to burn in her husband's pyre,we need people to reform them,thats where the misionaries fit in,be it christina or whatever ,now I know you people (MM,CAD...)will be concerned about conversions ,size of your flock or whatever ,but the bottom kind is if your kind lives better off oneway or another you should be happy....
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by CtrlAltDel » Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:03 am

u still havent substantiated what u said abt porn in ramayana! :lol: admit it xeno...u bluffed! :lol: or else post the link, yaar!



Xeno wrote:we would have still had SATI being practiced ,where are widow will be put in pyre of her dead husband,
thats shows yr ignorance...Sati is not mentioned in any hindu text nor is it sanctioned by any religious leaders who matter. it just evolved as a barbaric mediviel custom of certain Rajput clans. the fact that its been declared illegal and no one protested that Hinduism is in danger is a proof.
Xeno wrote:WE had a recent case of SATI in Rajasthan where all the villagers went to pray at the pyre site where the widow was forced to burn in her husband's pyre,
and that site has been demolished by the police, the involved people arrested and now no one goes there.
Xeno wrote:we need people to reform them,thats where the misionaries fit in,be it christina or whatever ,now I know you people (MM,CAD...)will be concerned about conversions ,size of your flock or whatever ,but the bottom kind is if your kind lives better off oneway or another you should be happy....
dont club the missionaries (who are doing a gr8 service) with the crackpot evangelists from the US...u are insulting christians by doing so...
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by Mayavi Morpheus » Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:06 am

CtrlAltDel wrote:it just evolved as a barbaric mediviel custom of certain Rajput clans.




to save their women from invading islamic hordes. This is one reason why sati is only practiced by rajputs and not rest of hindus.
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by Xeno » Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:42 am

Mayavi Morpheus wrote:
CtrlAltDel wrote:it just evolved as a barbaric mediviel custom of certain Rajput clans.


to save their women from invading islamic hordes. This is one reason why sati is only practiced by rajputs and not rest of hindus.




Hahaha...

What about west bengal its was more popular (SATI) in WB than in Rajasthan,it took a great reformist like ram mohan roy from bengal to stop it,you are being a moron by blaming every ill custom in Hindu society on Muslims .



what about the dowry system in Hindu society, is it because they want to show off to or protect their money from Islamic hordes..



what about the high abortion rate of girl child in Haryana and Chandigarh and Delhi among hindus,I know your answer will be to save them from Muslim boyfriends...
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by Xeno » Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:45 am

Mayavi Morpheus wrote:
CtrlAltDel wrote:it just evolved as a barbaric mediviel custom of certain Rajput clans.


to save their women from invading islamic hordes. This is one reason why sati is only practiced by rajputs and not rest of hindus.




A stupid question to your stupid reasoning,did the Islamic Hordes have a penchnat for widows that only widows were burnt in the fire and not other girls ,if you really want to save them you should save ...errr.. I mean burn them all why only poor widows.. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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by Mayavi Morpheus » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:13 am

Xeno wrote:A stupid question to your stupid reasoning,did the Islamic Hordes have a penchnat for widows that only widows were burnt in the fire and not other girls ,if you really want to save them you should save ...errr.. I mean burn them all why only poor widows.. :lol: :lol: :lol:


Good question. See, you can think much clearly and ask intelligent questions with your head out of ur ass.

Anyway, to answer your question, yes, the Invaders never used to leave anyone, married or unmarried (I hope you are aware that women were considered as war spoils and taken as slaves and quran doesnt specifically condemn it).

Taking enemy's wife as slave is not new in history, but the savagery with which women were treated by the afhgans, thanks in part to wonderful provisions in Islam, the rajputs might have thought its better to kill them than let the enemy take them.

Whenever a fort falls to the enemery, women used to kill themselves after the death of king. This 'practice' actually started when afghans started invading and gradually it morphed into the sati system. In one instance a rajput queen padmini killed herself along with 3000 other court women when the fort fell to the invaders.

Even during partition 1947, Sikhs and Hindus preferred to kill their women rather than let muslims rape them and convert, sikhs especially. In one particular punjabi village, a sikh man killed 160 women starting with his mother (all of them died voluntarily) before he was finally killed by muslims. It is not to say that Hindus and sikhs didnt rape muslim women, they did too, but muslims used to convert first and then rape. Whatever may be the reason, its the woman that suffered throughout the history.

To find an analogy in muslim practices, you can take the example of hijab. Why do muslim women cover their faces from head to toe? It has its genesis in the arab practice which was found its way into Islam. The North Indian practice of gosha system also stems from this. Although wearing Hijab cannot be compared to something as cruel as Sati, both have the same logic behind them - Opression of women in the name of protection.

what about the high abortion rate of girl child in Haryana and Chandigarh and Delhi among hindus,I know your answer will be to save them from Muslim boyfriends...




naaah... I think it would be more easy for parents to kill the muslim boy rather than kill their daughter.
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by lonewolf » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:22 am

Mayavi Morpheus wrote:To find an analogy in muslim practices, you can take the example of hijab. Why do muslim women cover their faces from head to toe? It has its genesis in the arab practice which was found its way into Islam.




Hey Mayavi, slight correction. You were probably referring to Burkha, not Hijab. :)



Hijab is only a veil worn by Muslim girls and women.

Abaya is the rest of the dress from neck to feet.

Burkha is technically Hijab + Abaya and is what most of the conservative Indian Muslim women wear.
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by Mayavi Morpheus » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:27 am

Thanks for pointing that out loney.
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by Xeno » Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:36 am

Mayavi Morpheus wrote:Thanks for pointing that out loney.




It was good listening to the RSS version of history, you cant just come up with stories like a Hindu woman did this, a Brahmin did that kinda crap ..be specific no RSS kind of reasoning is allowed here ..proof truth is what all matters..



I am talking about the present changes that need to be brought in India and Hindu bigots like you are coming up with concocted stories,I am talking about the present perils in Hindu society like abortion of girl child, and the worst of all Hindu women being forced to sit on Shiv Lingam(Huge big black stone in the shape of penis and _ ..supposed to Shiv's penis)to concieve a baby or treat infertility by their in laws and their sick husbands,if the husband is impotent a Hindu woman is made to sit on a shiv lingam for the whole night and get a sore ass(and probably get banged by her husband the night after)...what kinda justice is that a start has to be made ...dont just defend i tbecuase you belong to Hindu religion be realistic see thru your religion into humamnity and then into to your ass befoe you get into mine .....
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by DQ » Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:54 am

Xeno wrote:
Mayavi Morpheus wrote:Thanks for pointing that out loney.


It was good listening to the RSS version of history, you cant just come up with stories like a Hindu woman did this, a Brahmin did that kinda crap ..be specific no RSS kind of reasoning is allowed here ..proof truth is what all matters..

I am talking about the present changes that need to be brought in India and Hindu bigots like you are coming up with concocted stories,I am talking about the present perils in Hindu society like abortion of girl child, and the worst of all Hindu women being forced to sit on Shiv Lingam(Huge big black stone in the shape of penis and _ ..supposed to Shiv's penis)to concieve a baby or treat infertility by their in laws and their sick husbands,if the husband is impotent a Hindu woman is made to sit on a shiv lingam for the whole night and get a sore ass(and probably get banged by her husband the night after)...what kinda justice is that a start has to be made ...dont just defend i tbecuase you belong to Hindu religion be realistic see thru your religion into humamnity and then into to your ass befoe you get into mine .....








RWLOTFSMAO.



I hope this passes the moderators screen, would be a good read to LAFF.



He he, see this is what happens MM "Language, language Mind your language". I can see where this headed. He he.
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by Xeno » Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:53 am

Mayavi Morpheus wrote:
Whenever a fort falls to the enemery, women used to kill themselves after the death of king




I thought SATI used to happen when the husband died,thats when I thought bigots like you would send your women in to the fire of her husband,you turned out to be more cruel than that...Now you tell me that there was a "fort SATI" thats when a fort falls a women has to kill herself as per the Hindutva interpretation of a hardliner pujari /Brahmin ..and then you mentioned the "King SATI" thats when a king dies , I am appalled, I am counting, keep them coming...



sofar we have had three out of your brilliant RSS mind..

1)Husband SATI

2)Fort SATI..

3)King SATI..



and the list goes on feel free to add more ..

has it everbeen that a Hindu man was subjected to SATI,I think the Hindu man should be put into Sati for his cowardice rather than the poor woman...
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by DQ » Tue Aug 09, 2005 9:28 am

Xeno wrote:what about the dowry system in Hindu society, is it because they want to show off to or protect their money from Islamic hordes..




Now that the discussion has taken a interesting turn, MM din get a answer to this, What about the Dowry system, is that prevalent also due to the Hoarding Muslim armies.
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by CtrlAltDel » Tue Aug 09, 2005 9:57 am

Xeno wrote:the worst of all Hindu women being forced to sit on Shiv Lingam(Huge big black stone in the shape of penis and _ ..supposed to Shiv's penis)to concieve a baby or treat infertility by their in laws and their sick husbands,if the husband is impotent a Hindu woman is made to sit on a shiv lingam for the whole night
:lol: ROTFLMAO... :lol: where did u hear that...???? from another 'reformist' site i suppose! post the link maan! i'd love to 'discover' more interestign things abt my religion! :lol: :lol:



ok..the only truth in that thing u wrote is that ShivLing stands for a Penis. the pedestal it rests upon is called the 'Yoni' or the Vagina. this is not an example of porn or anything...its a recognition of the truth that sex is behind all life and creation. without it no life is possible. and worship of the Phallic symbols is representative of the deep regard and divinity people held sex and the related body parts in. this is why i had said in Hinduism, it was never a taboo topic but rather something that would help a man and woman lead a normal heathy life.



this is also why almost all ancient temples have sexually explicit scultptures. it was just considered an essential part of life like worship, food etc.



of course for people who have been taught that sex is a sinful activity (tho they do it at the drop of a hat), it would make no sense.



abt Sati, it evolved as a practice among warrior castes coz they felt they had to protect their women folk. it has no religious sanction.



same with Dowry. in actual practice, the groom had to pay the bride's father. this is still the norm in some communities. somewhere during the 19th century, this custom reversed (same as muslim men started taking dowry these days and just pay a token meher). the point is, this has no religious sanction and is NOT followed by all communities.



one thing to be remembered that a lot of social evils evolved in hindu society over centuries that are not mentioned or sanctioned anywhere in scriptures. this is because there is no single book or a figure of authority Hindus have. thats why its a flexible religion that can be changed to suit the current period. thats also why no one protests when reforms are suggested or made. hindus are not ashamed to admit faults in rules made centuries ago and have them changed to suit the day and age.
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