free will

[mark]

Do you believe in free will, i.e. the ablity to choose between 2 or more choices in the present, in such a way as it would be possible for you to also choose one of the choices not chosen given the same initial conditions?



Reading over that it might seem a little confusing. An example to clarify:

Ling Ling finds a wallet on the ground filled with money. She takes the wallet to the address on the driver’s license but keeps the money inside the wallet.

Ling Ling has made a decision here from a number of possible choices. What I am asking is, do you believe that if we could turn back the clock, and set the universe up exactly as it was when Ling Ling first found the wallet, would it be possible for her to make any other choice? Or is her choice conditioned by her previous experience and her genetic make-up, neither of which she can influence in the present?



My view of this is that each "choice" we make is a result of our previous experience and (to a much lesser extent) genetic make-up. As we have no control over either of these things in the present, we have no free will.

Am i talking through my ar$e here or does this make sense?



Everyone's lives are influenced by every event that happened in the past right back to the big bang, the future is influenced by the past, not the present, as the present is a point in time which has no duration (like a point in space has no dimension). If there is no duration then the present is just the transition point between the past and the future, with the latter being entirely determined by the former.

[Sharjeel]

Do you believe in free will, i.e. the ablity to choose between 2 or more choices in the present, in such a way as it would be possible for you to also choose one of the choices not chosen given the same initial conditions?

More than Genetics, I believe that it is the moral/religious schooling of people.



Atheists are a different matter. They could make different decisions. But if you say that the Universe is exactly the same, then it must follow that any person would make the same choice everytime. Trick question?

[akhilis2cool]

We are guided by our past expiriences/conditioning. Had Ling Ling been used to stealing money since child hood she then wld. have spent all that cash and had gr8 time.

[rock_26iin]

history is like a jigsaw puzzle, it all fits together the same way

[san]

there is no such thing as freewill i'm afraid cause we r all slaves. slaves to notions, conditions, feelings, thoughts, stuff, family, society, norms. all these things form a mish mash and make us believe things that are a weird mixture of right and wrong. what i'm saying is that it's all a game of the mind. it controls u until u gain the upper hand. then the fun starts, u don't care anymore about half the things in the above mentioned list of things. that's how it should be cause half the things or more don't actually matter at all! we r made to believe they are just to keep us in control. this is the begining of freedom. but since some of the sloppy mess is still left in the head u cannot attain total freewill. u certainly have to get a bit older to start fighting the brain tho; unless u can project to the future and then decide on the present.



there, now u know.

[CtrlAltDel]

i cud either choose to spam this thread or respond with a proper reply. choosing either of the above is not conditioned by prev expereinces or my genetic makeup.



so it all depends on the how the person feels at that moment.

[akhilis2cool]

i cud either choose to spam this thread or respond with a proper reply. choosing either of the above is not conditioned by prev expereinces or my genetic makeup.

so it all depends on the how the person feels at that moment.

I disagree.

spamming or not is a different issue. we know we are gonna get away either way.

but u will not think like this in all the situtations. its our values that guide us in critical situtations.

[rock_26iin]

i cud either choose to spam this thread or respond with a proper reply. choosing either of the above is not conditioned by prev expereinces or my genetic makeup.

so it all depends on the how the person feels at that moment.

I disagree.
spamming or not is a different issue. we know we are gonna get away either way.
but u will not think like this in all the situtations. its our values that guide us in critical situtations.

Does it really make a difference? Because when u see the big picture, no matter what decision u make, the end result will always end up being the same. It's said to be one of the most fundamental properties (or flaws) in time-travel.

[mark]

Do you believe in free will, i.e. the ablity to choose between 2 or more choices in the present, in such a way as it would be possible for you to also choose one of the choices not chosen given the same initial conditions?

More than Genetics, I believe that it is the moral/religious schooling of people.

Atheists are a different matter. They could make different decisions. But if you say that the Universe is exactly the same, then it must follow that any person would make the same choice everytime. Trick question?

whether you accept a set of values handed down to you (moral/religious schooling) or choose to define your own (as atheists must do) is besides the point, this has no bearing on free will.



It's not a trick question, i don't think. If you could only possibly make 1 decision based on a choice, given the initial conditions, then humans don't have free will. If we dont have free will, then:

Guilt is unnecessary, as we are not responsible for our actions

Good and Evil are subjective and conceptual, rather than objective and real, as humans can't determine their actions

Life is essentially meaningless, as we can't change our paths through it



There are lots of other conclusions that can be drawn, most of them extremely depressing.





Just spotted CAD's post there, CAD i would say that the person you are "at the moment" is determined by the past, as is the way you are feeling at the moment. You have no control over either of these things, so how can you make a choice in the present?(and also have the freedom to make another choice different from that choice given the same initial conditions?)

[vakibs]

Good and Evil are subjective and conceptual, rather than objective and real, as humans can't determine their actions

You are right about the first point. But becoz of a totally diff reason - that is, it depends on which perspective you are looking from (how many people bitched upon you, have you had sex recently, did it rain in the morning etc.. will influence your way of looking at things)

Life is essentially meaningless, as we can't change our paths through it

What I believe is that - the uncertainity in life is the only motivation to live. Maybe its true that your path is fixed rigidly (like that of a program) but you wont know about it untill you have finished travelling. Maybe the purpose of life is to look at ourselves in the end and understand properly who we actually are.

[vakibs]

My view of this is that each "choice" we make is a result of our previous experience and (to a much lesser extent) genetic make-up. As we have no control over either of these things in the present, we have no free will.
Am i talking through my ar$e here or does this make sense?

Once I heard of a folktale about Buridan's ass. Buridan had a donkey and that donkey was once presented a problem of choosing between two heaps of hay to eat for lunch. But the trouble is both of them were exactly identical and so the donkey starved to death knowing not how to choose.



But what happens is that people like us who live (unlike donkeys who die) , just pick up one of the two choices randomly. I might have a choice of (1) going to the mess and eating shit or (2) going to the canteen and eating shit. I'll arbitrarily pick one of the choices coz it doesnt really matter. But this ultimately has an effect of whether I get tummy-ache or not.



What I want to say is - people do have free will. But basically we are such idiots that we dont really know how to exercise it. And we just exercise it randomly.

[XYZee]

Does it really make a difference? Because when u see the big picture, no matter what decision u make, the end result will always end up being the same. It's said to be one of the most fundamental properties (or flaws) in time-travel.

I think the kind of decision made does have an effect on the future,like if I choose to do say thing1, doing that leads onto my doing thing2, which would effect me in some way, that wud make me do thing3.



I've made some real good buddies at movies, which I had thought if I should see at all, so just deciding that I'd see the movie did effect me in some way!!

[ycr007]

This Reminded me of a Game That I Used To Play Some Years ago.It Was Called Deus EX.And the Game was On the Premise that,the Next level would be decided by the Actions performed Currently.Suppose I Chose to Eliminate a Bad Guy,the Next Stage Would be more often than not be on revenge and all that Stuff.For Each Actions Performed,there was a Different Outcome in the Future.



In Real Life Howevr,I Think there's Nothing Much to do except rue over the fact that You've already Done the Damning Deed in Case of Pessimists and Feel that What's Done is Done and then Move Ahead in life in Case of Optimists.While I agree that the Deeds and Tasks Accomplished Prior to the Current Point Do have an Impact oon the Upcoming future,Personally,I think that More Importance Must be Attached to the Present.What is Important to me is the Fact that What is NOW,Not What was a Few Moments ago nor What is gonna HAppen a Few Moments from now on.

[XYZee]

I think that More Importance Must be Attached to the Present.What is Important to me is the Fact that What is NOW,Not What was a Few Moments ago nor What is gonna HAppen a Few Moments from now on.I

True.But sometimes on hind sight you'd see a pattern in the way things turn out, and you'd learn so much that it wud show in the way you'd take on life further on.



Erm, Mark, the way this topic started off, it reminded me of Coelho's Alchemist...any inspiration from there??

[wisecrack]

Erm, Mark, the way this topic started off, it reminded me of Coelho's Alchemist...any inspiration from there??

Yeah. Is it??

If there is no duration then the present is just the transition point between the past and the future, with the latter being entirely determined by the former.

Interesting point u've got there. Reminds me of Petri Nets and STDs!!! (State transition diagrams) . Well..if u'r religious ..whole of this can be bundled into a single concept called Karma (Your karma in this life decides what u will be in future..Rebirth etc ) Also the more famous saying of "As u sow,so u reap".

My view of this is that each "choice" we make is a result of our previous experience and (to a much lesser extent) genetic make-up. As we have no control over either of these things in the present, we have no free will.

To some extent we are all guided by our previous experiences (sensory-we flinch when something's too hot/cold...we take care not to repeat the same.) In the sense..we learn from our previous experiences and so some of our future actions might be determined by our past..
I agree with Sharjeel's view on Moral/religious beliefs.Finally it all comes down to what our true nature actually is.
[/quote]

[mark]

In the sense..we learn from our previous experiences and so some of our future actions might be determined by our past..
I agree with Sharjeel's view on Moral/religious beliefs.Finally it all comes down to what our true nature actually is.

[/quote]



first off, never heard of this Alchemist.



Secondly if some of our decisions are determined by the past, what are the rest of them determined by? CAD said mood, but your mood in the present is determined by the immediate past. In fact, everything about the present is determined by the past, 100%. If this is the case, then what room is there for free will?



I guess i'm thinking of people as black boxes, when a situation happens in the present we apply some sort of internal processes to it and make a decision on what to do. Since we can only make a decision based on experience (or learned religious dogma) in our lives up to the present, then given the exact same initial conditions we could only make the same choice again.



i'm sure i'm wrong on this somewhere, but could someone please point out to me where exactly? it's killing me.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Can someone define free will please.

In fact, everything about the present is determined by the past, 100%. If this is the case, then what room is there for free will?

That is AI for robots. I am sure human mind works in a different way.

[mark]

Can someone define free will please.

In fact, everything about the present is determined by the past, 100%. If this is the case, then what room is there for free will?

That is AI for robots. I am sure human mind works in a different way.

do you agree that the present is a point in time/space, and as such is entirely determined by the past?

[lizard king]

free will? my ass!

theree is always soemone there to fuk u up.

[rock_26iin]

Can someone define free will please.

In fact, everything about the present is determined by the past, 100%. If this is the case, then what room is there for free will?

That is AI for robots. I am sure human mind works in a different way.

do you agree that the present is a point in time/space, and as such is entirely determined by the past?

well, from the point of refrence of this being the present is actually independent of the past or the future. If you took any point of time in the past or future, that by default becomes the present since that is being discussed in the "present" moment. Plus space-time is too complicated (or fundamentally incorrect) to understand.

[mark]

Can someone define free will please.

In fact, everything about the present is determined by the past, 100%. If this is the case, then what room is there for free will?

That is AI for robots. I am sure human mind works in a different way.

do you agree that the present is a point in time/space, and as such is entirely determined by the past?

well, from the point of refrence of this being the present is actually independent of the past or the future. If you took any point of time in the past or future, that by default becomes the present since that is being discussed in the "present" moment. Plus space-time is too complicated (or fundamentally incorrect) to understand.

how does discussing a point of time in the past make it the present?



I agree that space/time is too complicated for generalisations, GTR, STR and quantum mechanics make things very complicated, and until we understand these better we'll never know how deterministic the universe is, but you can still speculate about it. My view is that free will is an illusion created by the fact that we can only possibly make each decision we make 1 time, so we can never know if it would be possible for us to take the road not travelled.



ah, i probably have too much time on my hands right now.

[vakibs]

My view is that free will is an illusion created by the fact that we can only possibly make each decision we make 1 time, so we can never know if it would be possible for us to take the road not travelled.

ah, i probably have too much time on my hands right now.

guyz.. did u see this awesome movie called run lola run. ( lola rennt in german original )

[Vishrasayan]

My life exists in two dimensions.....I am not sure if I can explain it, but i'll try.....did you ever spin on your toes/feet (may be as a kid?) & when you stopped.... you found the arrangement of things around your is staggered? - it may not happen every time, but it does happen in three or four tries..



I did some research into this phenomenon...the stagger angle is always 90% & going back to the previous dimension is possible by forcing your mind to do a 90% swap of the environment......now I am quite capable of swapping the dimension by mere imagination



the little bit science I understand tells me that this could be the effect of the mid-ear fluids…tinnitus…nevertheless the dimensions do exist & have an effect…



now why am I talking of these dimensions here?...because I observed that the thinking process changes with the dimension... to say the way I would react to a particular instance would be marginally different for each dimension...



free will...not sure, but yes if you turn the clock back and put me in the same spot ....but in a different dimension, I just might decide differently...as I see the experiences of each dimension don’t seem to effect the decisions in the other dimension....



funny part is while the physicists established the 3-D universe and recently proposed the 4th D seriously - I am grappling here with the discovery of the second dimension



start spinning.....and no lengthy yaarns please..

[XYZee]

free will...not sure, but yes if you turn the clock back and put me in the same spot ....but in a different dimension, I just might decide differently...as I see the experiences of each dimension don’t seem to effect the decisions in the other dimension....

Diff dimension=diff set of circumstances under which you'd act??

And...

first off, never heard of this Alchemist.

sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was accusing you or anything...

[mark]

first off, never heard of this Alchemist.

sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was accusing you or anything...

sorry, didn't mean to sound like i was accusing you of accusing me. i knew you were just enquiring, i was in a hurry with my post so it was a bit blunt.



Vakibs, I rented Lola Rennt last night, going to watch it tonight.