Acceptibility...Possibility in HYD. Will it be ?

[lizard king]

Ah uh whats this Mark.

i'll stick to homosexuality

interpret it any way you like man.

Man, personally, i have had been through a lot of crap cos a manipulative poof,but that would nt change the way i see them. Well, as a matter of fact, i have had tougher times with people who were extremely repulsive to homosexuality (dont know if i could call it homophobia)

[Mayavi Morpheus]

you also have accepted that these acts are carried out by animals too, and all I am asking you to look at is that this same animal instinct when suppresses the humaneness in human beings leads them to carry similar acts. Hard to GULP. I know. "Effects of openness."

ummm DQ saab... animals are also hetero sexual, give birth, feed and raise them, eat, sleep, breathe and do most of the things which human do. Are these acts considered inhuman, animal instincts?

[mark]

you also have accepted that these acts are carried out by animals too, and all I am asking you to look at is that this same animal instinct when suppresses the humaneness in human beings leads them to carry similar acts. Hard to GULP. I know. "Effects of openness."

my view, in three words.



we are animals





hard to gulp perhaps dq.

[Kavita]

.
.
It is not natural at all Full Stop.
.

If its not natural to you, that doesnt mean it can not be natural to everybody else. To some it is natural and thats a fact.

[Q]

you also have accepted that these acts are carried out by animals too, and all I am asking you to look at is that this same animal instinct when suppresses the humaneness in human beings leads them to carry similar acts. Hard to GULP. I know. "Effects of openness."

my view, in three words.

we are animals


hard to gulp perhaps dq.

Huh we start the loop again.



We are animals with highly sophisticated brains.

We are a organised race of animals, that are powerful due to our ability think.

To those who propose animals also reproduce, Yes, so? Do you propose we stop. They also mate their own sibling do you propose humans start that?



And to those who propose same sex relationships are natural. How?



Yes its a "fact" they exist but how are they natural?

[Habitual Perfectionist]

Huh we start the loop again.

We are animals with highly sophisticated brains.
We are a organised race of animals, that are powerful due to our ability think.
To those who propose animals also reproduce, Yes, so? Do you propose we stop. They also mate their own sibling do you propose humans start that?

And to those who propose same sex relationships are natural. How?

Yes its a "fact" they exist but how are they natural?

You answered your question yourself DQ. Before I elaborate how, let's first make sure if we're both understanding the term "natural" the same way. For me, natural is something that's intrinsic to our behaviour...something instinctive. I hope you also understand the word in the same sense.



And now, an explanation of how the phenomenon is natural. As you say, and I'm sure all of us will agree with you on that, we are animals with highly sophisticated brains. And because of these highly sophisticated brains, quite a few behavioural tendencies of ours do not confirm with the social norms we've set for ourselves. IMO, these social norms are unnatural - made by man based on his personal whims and fancies. Now, the behavioural tendencies that have gone astray are, from a very unbiased point of view, the same as the ones that confirm to our social norms - the only difference being the social acceptance of either. Homosexuality is one of these traunt behaviours. And its as natural as a child having stinted growth or a person losing his mental balance. I'm sure you'll agree that these things are natural.



Also, homosexuality is not a matter of choice. Nobody evaluates their sexual attraction towards both sexes and then decides whether they'll be heterosexual or homosexual. Its something that just happens.



Now let's hear why you find it unnatural.

[DQ]

You answered your question yourself DQ. Before I elaborate how, let's first make sure if we're both understanding the term "natural" the same way. For me, natural is something that's intrinsic to our behaviour...something instinctive. I hope you also understand the word in the same sense.

Thats where you and I differ.



What you term as Natural is infact termed in Urdu as "Aadat" in english habit.



I have an habit of smoking, I may try to justify this act as intrinsic but hence it does not become Natural.



Natural is "in accordance with nature", "existing in or produced by nature."



A man and woman copulate thats natural because of the way they exist in nature.



Nature is not stagnotary, nature is productive.



The above copulation can be justified as it is productive. For those who beleive in the concept of God, thats the way God ordained us to be. Again I repeat it may have been thought from childhood but that does not make it wrong.



Think......

[DQ]

You answered your question yourself DQ. Before I elaborate how, let's first make sure if we're both understanding the term "natural" the same way. For me, natural is something that's intrinsic to our behaviour...something instinctive. I hope you also understand the word in the same sense.

Thats where you and I differ.



What you term as Natural is infact termed in Urdu as "Aadat" in english habit.



I have an habit of smoking, I may try to justify this act as intrinsic but hence it does not become Natural.



Natural is "in accordance with nature", "existing in or produced by nature."



A man and woman copulate thats natural because of the way they exist in nature.



Nature is not stagnotary, nature is productive.



The above copulation can be justified as it is productive. For those who beleive in the concept of God, thats the way God ordained us to be. Again I repeat it may have been thought from childhood but that does not make it wrong.



Think......

[Habitual Perfectionist]

You answered your question yourself DQ. Before I elaborate how, let's first make sure if we're both understanding the term "natural" the same way. For me, natural is something that's intrinsic to our behaviour...something instinctive. I hope you also understand the word in the same sense.

Thats where you and I differ.

What you term as Natural is infact termed in Urdu as "Aadat" in english habit.

I have an habit of smoking, I may try to justify this act as intrinsic but hence it does not become Natural.

Natural is "in accordance with nature", "existing in or produced by nature."

A man and woman copulate thats natural because of the way they exist in nature.

Nature is not stagnotary, nature is productive.

The above copulation can be justified as it is productive. For those who beleive in the concept of God, thats the way God ordained us to be. Again I repeat it may have been thought from childhood but that does not make it wrong.

Think......

And how are we to know what God ordained us to be? According to my belief, God has made human beings different from other beings in terms of a rational thinking capacity. And, for the same reason, God has also given us a free will...with the rider of actions and reactions (the concept of Karma). Nowhere has God ever dictated us to do anything.



You might talk about the Quran or the Bible here. But IMO, they are texts authored by human beings finally and spread around as God's word by the last messenger of God and the son of God respectively. My reason for saying that all societal norms that exist are man made and not natural.



Please note that when I said intrinsic, I also said instinctive and a habit is never instinctive. Its something that a human being starts out of his personal choice. Instinctive actions follow no rhyme, reason or method.

[mark]

Think......

I would have put an extra . there, for emphasis. but thats just me.





good posts HP

[Habitual Perfectionist]

good posts HP

Thanks Mark. Intellectual stimulation is something I've been missing on the boards of late and this thread has in a way given me some respite.

[mark]

yeah i know what you mean. took a 2 week break and when i came back it was all the same threads! nuts.



Most of the contraversial threads have been taken, i haven't seen one on abortion yet though. is it common in India? (it's not allowed in Ireland at all)



anyhow a new thread perhaps.





on homosexuality, its none of my business what people do behind their own doors, and if they choose to celebrate that in the streets in a decent manner, thats ok by me too. that goes for any consentual activity.

[Habitual Perfectionist]

Most of the contraversial threads have been taken, i haven't seen one on abortion yet though. is it common in India? (it's not allowed in Ireland at all)

Abortion is not all that big an issue here. What really is an issue is cheap abortion clinics which are more of slaughter houses. And yes...Female infanticide. I think DQ addressed female infanticide in one of his threads.

[lizard king]

well, religion and everything having to do with religion including God (and CAD, whats ur clut[not _] named?) has to be contraversial in this modern world.

in the same line of discussion, why is it that a muslim woman is not supposed to marry a hindu man and probably the vice versa? and does it still make sense that one should get married to the person of teh same caste?

why are they castout from the very society which claims to be multicultural and highly accpeting?

Even though the discussion here swayed from the topic of being open about the issue of gays to the discussion between what is natural and unnatural and finally the debate about "God" and his exsistence, I think this was one thread that truely demonstrated what a discussion board is meant to be.

All the people who posted their views believed in what they said , but there was one subtle difference. some were willing to accept that there can exsist an other view and even that they themselves might not be entirely right while a few were so rigid as to even accept that the coin can have two sides.

A lot of different issues have been dealt here so i will try to give my point of view on them seperately.



First on the topic of the thread, homosexuality. There are a few points about it that need to be understood.

Taking the arguement that homosexuality is un-natural and un-human ,as some people refered to it, as true would raise a few more queries as to what is natural and human.

for example.. looking at one of the reasons why homosexuality is considered un-natural -- because it does not lead to procreation? well if that is the arguement then so are some of the sexual practises between partners of the opposite sex , like use of condoms and anything else other than genital intercourse. So does the arguement hold good even here and say that even that should be condemned?

Still sticking with the natural vs unnatural debate, how is eating meat still natural for us ( highly intelligent brainy animals that we are ) even after we evolved from the meat eating and naked neanderthals ? Its not that we can not survive with out eating meat. But we do not even think twice before enjoying our favourite biryani just because we have been used to thinking that it is natural for us to eat meat. In the same way some cultures of homosapiens still practise canabalism which is unnatural and un-human to most of us. does that practise make them animals? No, i dont think so because we would be doing the same things if we were taught the same things since infancy.

Next what is so natural about covering ourselves with clothes? If "God" meant us to be clothed then he would have seen to it that we are clothed at birth. so why this debate about natural and unnatural when so many things that we do in our daily life are anything but natural.

A lot of good things in this world we created are unnatural, meaning not created by "God"/nature. but we do use them and do not feel bad about them. so why this discrimination ? just because someone somewhere sometime decided what is wrong and what is right ? I think that decision should be left to each individual with the society at large having some broad guideing principles.



(On the lighter side ----

The one point i always wondered about was, why would anyone want to be a homosexual? I mean think of it in the pure materialistic terms, even the heterosexuals can do what the homosexuals do, except one thing . So are all the homosexuals after that ?????? and they chose that over all other pleasures ??? so if you think along those lines you tend to be more and more inclined to think that homosexuality has to be more intrinsic than just a matter of choice.)



The next arguement was about the acceptance of gays in society. whats the big deal about that ? I think we should have a problem only if the gays try to force their sexual orientation on us. As long as they stick to what they are doing and do not bother us , lets stay at peace with them. This is just like accepting any other issue , for example religion, we shouldnt have a problem with what the other person's faith is as long as it is his/her own business. but if he tries to force his beliefs upon others then he should be stopped just as the gays should be.



The next issue discussed was about the exsistence of "God". frankly none of us do have the experience or the age to discuss a matter of such importance on the same boards that discuss "studs in hot ass pants".

So in my view that topic is best left off the boards.

[mark]

The next issue discussed was about the exsistence of "God". frankly none of us do have the experience or the age to discuss a matter of such importance on the same boards that discuss "studs in hot ass pants".
So in my view that topic is best left off the boards.

Good post, except for this part. Philosophy is a lifelong task, if you don't think about and discuss the big issues at each stage of your life, then your views won't mature and you'll never achieve the experience and age necessary to discuss it.

You've probably noticed that while our views may be immature, most of us have arrived at them from within ourselves, based on the paths we cut through life. As for discussing them on the same board as "studs in hot ass pants", there's not much overlap between people who've posted there and here i'll bet. What's important is that nobody has posted a message in this thread concerning studs in hot ass pants.



"I will show you fear in a handful of dust"

[.?]

I see that you viewing this post with Bias and hence concluding in error.

- Rigidity is not obstinancy. And does not mean that a POV is incorrect.

- Using a condomn does not lead to humans inability to reproduce. So your argument of trying to club this with homosexuality is baseless.

- How is meat eating not natural with us ?

- Clothing is a different story we evolved from being naked to a creed of clothed and culture people to now going back to the stone age of nakedness.

- Eating meat been a part of our diet and continues to be, so how is that unnatural?

- Are you one of the Aghoris who would still consider eating Human eat normal?

What are you trying to prove?

- Now from here you suggest that if we need to have wardrobes why doesnt a womans womb have one? If god wanted us to have wardrobes they should have been there in a mothers womb too?



Aha, so you conclude that all beleive that it is not right (Homo sexuality), but we should accept it. In other words "We should learn to accept wht is not right."



Our ability of not to accept what is not right has lead us to develop to this stage. Now our inability to not voice against what wrong will lead to us being diminished.

I see that you viewing this post with Bias and hence concluding in error.

If you can term being considerate and reasonable as being baised then I think I am biased. And i have a small doubt, do u consider yourself unbiased ?

- Rigidity is not obstinancy. And does not mean that a POV is incorrect.

Rigidity is as good as obstinancy as long as refuse to listen to reason. And oppose something based on cultural moorings rather than on rational thinking.

- Using a condomn does not lead to humans inability to reproduce. So your argument of trying to club this with homosexuality is baseless.

If using a condom does not lead to humans becoming incapable of reproducing ( although temporarily), i dont know what they are used for? For their flavour?
My arguement is about having an artificial (in other words un natural) way of stopping the power to procreate. so it does fit in here.
If you still think that temporary measures are okay , then what is your view on vacestomy and tubectomies ?
For arguement sake, we can also say that caesareans are also unnatural. so are most other surgical procedures. So then where do we stand , its okay for things that we are comfortable with but not with others.
My arguement is simple, nothing a man does can never be un-natural, it might be uncultured or anyother name we give it, but definetly not un-natural. Because everything and anything that occurs in nature is natural.

- How is meat eating not natural with us ?
- Clothing is a different story we evolved from being naked to a creed of clothed and culture people to now going back to the stone age of nakedness.
- Eating meat been a part of our diet and continues to be, so how is that unnatural?
- Are you one of the Aghoris who would still consider eating Human eat normal?
What are you trying to prove?
- Now from here you suggest that if we need to have wardrobes why doesnt a womans womb have one? If god wanted us to have wardrobes they should have been there in a mothers womb too?

Meat eating and clothing are considered natural because we have been brought up all our lives thinking that its okay. Imagine telling a vegetarian that meat eating is natural or some tribes that do not dress that covering urself up is natural. They would think you are crazy. just as u think gays are crazy. It is just a matter of perception.
I am not trying to prove anything, what i am trying to do is just live my life with out causing harm to others and not bothering others if they dont cause me any harm. Thats the easiest way to go about life in a world where everything is created by "God".

Aha, so you conclude that all beleive that it is not right (Homo sexuality), but we should accept it. In other words "We should learn to accept wht is not right."

Our ability of not to accept what is not right has lead us to develop to this stage. Now our inability to not voice against what wrong will lead to us being diminished.

What i am saying is that there are a lot things that we do not have explainations to, and they do not exactly fall under the catogeries of right and wrong. The world is full of grey areas , its not just black and white.

Your idea about voiceing your opinion about what you think about a particular issue is fine , but when you say it should be banned then you are crossing the limits of your freedom and entering other's private space.

Remember, your freedom is good and valid as long as it does not encroach on others freedom.[/quote]

[Mayavi Morpheus]

I see that you viewing this post with Bias and hence concluding in error.
- Rigidity is not obstinancy. And does not mean that a POV is incorrect.

Rigidity is stubbornly sticking to a point of view and shutting your mind to reasoning.

[CtrlAltDel]

well...good to see this discussion going strong...! i missed it all these days!

[mark]

well...good to see this discussion going strong...! i missed it all these days!

and the new threads are pushed off. and the old threads return. and CAD resumes his march towards 10000 posts.