Acceptibility...Possibility in HYD. Will it be ?

[Xeno]

Why is god made out to be such a supreme creature/power, that no man can be equated to him?
Is there is no relation between god and man except that of a creator and creation? why did he create us in the first place? What does religion has to say about this? Is the purpose of existence only to serve the creator and nothing else?

Oh man give me a break,evry body here going nuts on religion ,all I said was its so obviously wrong to make god out of humans chief, to me it looks wrong but its just my view .

[mark]

Good response. I think we differ on 2 fundamental points.
Firstly I believe we are bipedal tool using animals of the species Homo Sapiens. Nothing more, nothing less.

Ok. If we define ourselves biologically. Agreed.

But do you also agree that we have something called us Brain, a highly developed one ?

Yes you do agree, and have aptly stated as well,

I think these unique properties are an emergent property of our large brains

Now these brains are backed by an extremly efficient property named the heart, and a synchronization of the two is exemplary in us the "bipedal/Homo Sapiens/Humans"

Now this gives us the ability to over come an instinct found in all creations, which modern science has termed as "Animal Instinct"

What makes us powerful,

Not a fight with the Bear, not the swim with the shark, nor our inability to lick our genitals, but again as aptly stated by you

Humans have a unique capability to shape the world to our needs

.

more evolved is misleading, think "evolved into a different niche".

Now thats where you and I do not agree, we have not evolved as per our needs, but have been given the ability to evolve according to our need. There is a difference between evolved and having the ability to evolve.

How do I second it, its our ability to create a device that races faster then the cheetah and the shark, which has more power then the bear. That is what makes us the most powerful. If any other creature had this they would have taken predence over us.

How do we obtain this powers, is by putting the synch of heart and mind to best use. The greater the control to synch this power the exemplary the person. The moment we start losing control of this synch, we allow the animal instinct to take control and once that happens we can murder, rape, indulge in same sex relationships etc etc.

And again I repeat, you continue to claim that all this forms humanity, no its a pity that these people are humans who commit acts that are unhuman (led by animal instinct). Looking at things in a multiple angle does not make wrong to right. Humanity remains humanity even if the majority turn to acts that are unhuman.

1. Mayavi and Malakie I will proceed with Indian values and morality after this issue is sorted, the issue about allowing animal instinct to take precedence and clubbing it to be human.

2. Malakie I advise that you do not resort to blasphemy, you may have read that in the Article in The Age, but that is the extreme use of free speech. I consider it blasphemous and advice that it not be repeated on these boards again.

ALSO ADVISE THE MODS TO REMOVE MALAKIES POST ON JESUS. WHICH IS SLANDEROUS AND BLASPHEMOUS.

Malkie I HAVE TRIED TO STAY CLEAR ON RELEGION IN THIS TOPIC, BUT IF YOU WANT TO GET BLASPHEMOUS THEN BELEIVE ME YOU WILL REGRET IT.

DQ, this is a great thread, as a general rule if you see something which you consider insulting, try to come at it from the posters point of view.



Anyone who is secure in their beliefs does not fear free speach.



I find your views on homosexuality insulting and bigotted, however i understand this is a product of different cultural background, so i've debated rather THAN USE CAPITAL LETTERS and ask the mods to intervene.



As to your mind and heart thing, i'm not sure if you're using Heart as a metophor for soul, or if you really mean that there is something special about the organ that pumps blood around our body?





You say - "We define ourselves bilogically. BUT would you agree we have a brain?" - this is part of our biological makeup, yes a large brain is a trait of our species but most living things have a brain of some size, capable of computation, basic logic, data storage, emotions.

Yes, humans do have some unique emergent properties of the brain, introspection and the ability to conceptualise seem to be unique to our brain (however there is no reason for this to be exclusively so in the future)



Your views on evolution indicate that you don't understand evolutionary theory, your views on "animal instinct" and unhuman acts are incomprehensible, if human beings indulge in these acts so regularly then they are human acts, we are animals, full stop. We are capable of defining rules against acts that harm our society, as we are social animals, this does not mean acts that are against the law are inhuman. This does not mean that something that harms society is inhuman.



For me, nothing a human being is capable of can possible be inhuman.

[DQ]

Good response. I think we differ on 2 fundamental points.
Firstly I believe we are bipedal tool using animals of the species Homo Sapiens. Nothing more, nothing less.

Ok. If we define ourselves biologically. Agreed.

But do you also agree that we have something called us Brain, a highly developed one ?

Yes you do agree, and have aptly stated as well,

I think these unique properties are an emergent property of our large brains

Now these brains are backed by an extremly efficient property named the heart, and a synchronization of the two is exemplary in us the "bipedal/Homo Sapiens/Humans"

Now this gives us the ability to over come an instinct found in all creations, which modern science has termed as "Animal Instinct"

What makes us powerful,

Not a fight with the Bear, not the swim with the shark, nor our inability to lick our genitals, but again as aptly stated by you

Humans have a unique capability to shape the world to our needs

.

more evolved is misleading, think "evolved into a different niche".

Now thats where you and I do not agree, we have not evolved as per our needs, but have been given the ability to evolve according to our need. There is a difference between evolved and having the ability to evolve.

How do I second it, its our ability to create a device that races faster then the cheetah and the shark, which has more power then the bear. That is what makes us the most powerful. If any other creature had this they would have taken predence over us.

How do we obtain this powers, is by putting the synch of heart and mind to best use. The greater the control to synch this power the exemplary the person. The moment we start losing control of this synch, we allow the animal instinct to take control and once that happens we can murder, rape, indulge in same sex relationships etc etc.

And again I repeat, you continue to claim that all this forms humanity, no its a pity that these people are humans who commit acts that are unhuman (led by animal instinct). Looking at things in a multiple angle does not make wrong to right. Humanity remains humanity even if the majority turn to acts that are unhuman.

1. Mayavi and Malakie I will proceed with Indian values and morality after this issue is sorted, the issue about allowing animal instinct to take precedence and clubbing it to be human.

2. Malakie I advise that you do not resort to blasphemy, you may have read that in the Article in The Age, but that is the extreme use of free speech. I consider it blasphemous and advice that it not be repeated on these boards again.

ALSO ADVISE THE MODS TO REMOVE MALAKIES POST ON JESUS. WHICH IS SLANDEROUS AND BLASPHEMOUS.

Malkie I HAVE TRIED TO STAY CLEAR ON RELEGION IN THIS TOPIC, BUT IF YOU WANT TO GET BLASPHEMOUS THEN BELEIVE ME YOU WILL REGRET IT.

DQ, this is a great thread, as a general rule if you see something which you consider insulting, try to come at it from the posters point of view.

Anyone who is secure in their beliefs does not fear free speach.

I find your views on homosexuality insulting and bigotted, however i understand this is a product of different cultural background, so i've debated rather THAN USE CAPITAL LETTERS and ask the mods to intervene.

As to your mind and heart thing, i'm not sure if you're using Heart as a metophor for soul, or if you really mean that there is something special about the organ that pumps blood around our body?


You say - "We define ourselves bilogically. BUT would you agree we have a brain?" - this is part of our biological makeup, yes a large brain is a trait of our species but most living things have a brain of some size, capable of computation, basic logic, data storage, emotions.
Yes, humans do have some unique emergent properties of the brain, introspection and the ability to conceptualise seem to be unique to our brain (however there is no reason for this to be exclusively so in the future)

Your views on evolution indicate that you don't understand evolutionary theory, your views on "animal instinct" and unhuman acts are incomprehensible, if human beings indulge in these acts so regularly then they are human acts, we are animals, full stop. We are capable of defining rules against acts that harm our society, as we are social animals, this does not mean acts that are against the law are inhuman. This does not mean that something that harms society is inhuman.

For me, nothing a human being is capable of can possible be inhuman.

You close the debate there Mark.



What I comprehend is that you beleive that all acts are justified, and form the crux of humanity. I totally disagree with that, and I stick to what I say, if humans let that animal instinct in them take precedence then they go about lickiing/sucking genitals etc (maybe not their own)



As far as most people who purport practicality and science in all aspects of life, do not beleive in "the soul" at all, they just beleive in the actual organs and possibly think that everything is mechanical and serves purpose it is created for.



If you find my views on homosexuality you have ebery right to ask for these posts to be removed. I do find Lizard Kings posts on Jesus objectionable and will call for them to be removed. I beleive in freedom of speech but also beleive in retaining my right to protest against whats not right.



Its the sad state of the world today that Naipauls, Rushdies and their likes get away in the garb of freedom of speech slandreing and overriding the rights of millions of other people.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

I have a small request: Please donot quote entire post as it makes reading difficult.

Back to topic:

What I comprehend is that you beleive that all acts are justified, and form the crux of humanity. I totally disagree with that, and I stick to what I say, if humans let that animal instinct in them take precedence then they go about lickiing/sucking genitals etc (maybe not their own)

If man is really different from animals, then why does he still have sex to have babies, just like animals? Why does he eat other animals to satiate his hunger, again an animalistic behaviour?
Does man always have to be different from animals?

I beleive in freedom of speech but also beleive in retaining my right to protest against whats not right.

So who decides what is right and what is wrong?

[mark]

You close the debate there Mark.

What I comprehend is that you beleive that all acts are justified, and form the crux of humanity. I totally disagree with that, and I stick to what I say, if humans let that animal instinct in them take precedence then they go about lickiing/sucking genitals etc (maybe not their own)

As far as most people who purport practicality and science in all aspects of life, do not beleive in "the soul" at all, they just beleive in the actual organs and possibly think that everything is mechanical and serves purpose it is created for.

If you find my views on homosexuality you have ebery right to ask for these posts to be removed. I do find Lizard Kings posts on Jesus objectionable and will call for them to be removed. I beleive in freedom of speech but also beleive in retaining my right to protest against whats not right.

Its the sad state of the world today that Naipauls, Rushdies and their likes get away in the garb of freedom of speech slandreing and overriding the rights of millions of other people.

DQ, i have never justified any activities which harm human beings who are not consentual partners to those activities. The fact that i believe murder is human by no means indicates that i condone it.



Secondly, of course you can protest against what you percieve to be wrong, however a persons views are their views, they are free to express them, as long as they do not risk anyone physical harm through inciting racial or religious hatred. I don't believe Lizards post will lead to anybody being physically harmed, as i don't believe your post will lead to any homosexuals being physically harmed. therefore, both posts should remain. (please note by physically i include financially, but not morally)



i think censorship is the act of the insecure.

[DQ]

DQ, i have never justified any activities which harm human beings who are not consentual partners to those activities. The fact that i believe murder is human by no means indicates that i condone it.

Secondly, of course you can protest against what you percieve to be wrong, however a persons views are their views, they are free to express them, as long as they do not risk anyone physical harm through inciting racial or religious hatred. I don't believe Lizards post will lead to anybody being physically harmed, as i don't believe your post will lead to any homosexuals being physically harmed. therefore, both posts should remain. (please note by physically i include financially, but not morally)

i think censorship is the act of the insecure.

Both your points have only one answer Mark.



Your silence today, your non protest to todays wrong makes it tomorrows fact, and your silence it put forth as proof.



So my protest and stand point in both cases is justified.

[mark]

DQ, i have never justified any activities which harm human beings who are not consentual partners to those activities. The fact that i believe murder is human by no means indicates that i condone it.

Secondly, of course you can protest against what you percieve to be wrong, however a persons views are their views, they are free to express them, as long as they do not risk anyone physical harm through inciting racial or religious hatred. I don't believe Lizards post will lead to anybody being physically harmed, as i don't believe your post will lead to any homosexuals being physically harmed. therefore, both posts should remain. (please note by physically i include financially, but not morally)

i think censorship is the act of the insecure.

Both your points have only one answer Mark.

Your silence today, your non protest to todays wrong makes it tomorrows fact, and your silence it put forth as proof.

So my protest and stand point in both cases is justified.

DQ, if i feel anyones rights have been violated i will protest of course, but that is not the issue. If i say "all christians are evil", or "homosexuals will burn in hell", or "Jesus was gay", it may be slander, but unless it does perceivable harm to somebody, then i've not infringed anyones rights. Nobody has a "right" to not be insulted, thats just ridiculous.



You find "Jesus was Gay" insulting. Fine. How has this harmed you? Why should it be removed?

[CtrlAltDel]

Your silence today, your non protest to todays wrong makes it tomorrows fact, and your silence it put forth as proof.

So my protest and stand point in both cases is justified.

but who decides what is wrong? what u feel to be grevious wrong may not be thought abt the same way by me...for ex, this gay thing. i would not mind gays coming out of the closet but u do.

[akhilis2cool]

Your silence today, your non protest to todays wrong makes it tomorrows fact, and your silence it put forth as proof.

So my protest and stand point in both cases is justified.

I think what we are seeing today is a fact.

but u cant saywrong simply becoz u feel its not right.

[lizard king]

in the beginning, there was darkness. Then, man created God.

na, its more like... in the beginning there was free will. then, man created god



i dont know how others see it, but i just consider he concept of god as a prison of our own demise. maybe to explain demise itself.



And once , again, i dont want to cause any speculations with my posts, i am just trying to put forth my opinions, not preachings, if u want to believe in them, reason them. for the God said in the koran, they who question their faith are the true believers. (And these are not my words).



and again, if any of u firmly believe in the concept of God, then my words are not blashpemy, if god created me, then my thoughts are a part of his creation too, and nothing in his creation can be blashpemy, and if it is. then why did he create it?

[lizard king]

And about Blasphemy, i wonder where the western civilisation would have been if Socrates went into the books of history as a blashpemist, not a philosopher.

[mayumi]

i have so many Homo friends but none of them has aggravated me, my family, my other friends and as well as my society, not even our country's President .... to be able to live normal for them, they choose to speak out, stand out, come out to the public as to who and what they really are regardless of the gender issues....whether these ppl are gays or lesbians, they are still humans, and whether they indulge themselves into something that we, as normal people dont do, it is their own choice and that could make them feel better than to hide their own true feelings and keep their own true identites in the closet else they would be losers forever....unhuman act, as far as i know is lack of respect or love for God; it is lack of love or respect for other people.....if homosexuality means same-gender erotic, physical expressions of union and pleasure, the possibility of personal sin exists in homosexuality-as it does in heterosexuality-depending on the interplay of three factors including the physical behavior itself and its meaning for the person, the personal motives and intentions of the person acting, and the individual and social consequences or results of the behavior, for many people, sexual behavior which is exploitive, dishonest, selfish or destructive of human personhood is sinful; for all people sin means freely acting contrary to one's deeply held moral or ethical convictions, whether these come from organized religion or a personally developed value system.......and yeah, u just cant say that a thing is wrong simply bcoz u feel its not right..........oh well akhilis, thanx for that, ive been thinking of the right sentence to come out

[lizard king]

in the beginning, there was darkness. Then, man created God.

na, its more like... in the beginning there was free will. then, man created god

i dont know how others see it, but i just consider he concept of god as a prison of our own demise. maybe to explain demise itself.

And once , again, i dont want to cause any speculations with my posts, i am just trying to put forth my opinions, not preachings, if u want to believe in them, reason them. for the God said in the koran, they who question their faith are the true believers. (And these are not my words).

and again, if any of u firmly believe in the concept of God, then my words are not blashpemy, if god created me, then my thoughts are a part of his creation too, and nothing in his creation can be blashpemy, and if it is. then why did he create it?

pardon my mistake, that was supposed to be reason and not question

[Sharjeel]

Such a nice discussion, but again, off-topic. 'tis the Curse of the FHDB, I tell ya!



@MM, we find it hard to believe that a 'man' can be God because Man him/herself is created in the womb. We can alter Genes while it is in the womb, even extinguish it's life ( ). How can you do that to a God? We can imagine a human to be a Prohpet, Messiah, etc, etc, since they were all Humans, and (will) die. Yes, they were Superhumans, but humans still.



Why is the concept of a single powerful entity so out-of-reach for you people? The very purpose of Science is to Observe phenomena, and identify their cause and effect.



The Universe is a phenomena, and God was the cause (according to the religiously inclined). People buy that theory because the things written in the Holy books of the various religions have logic. they have a certain flow.



An example: First there was God (ok, a start, however vague). He was bored and decided to create the Universe and it's thingies and decided to estabilish natures laws. Then he put some humans into Earth and wherever, and gave them highly evolved brains, and free will.



Science does not have this type of (easy and believable) explanation for the Univ and human existence. If it had, then I would be the first convert to the new religion of 'science'. I could go on about the shortcomings of science, but will hold out for any comments or other ideas.



Btw, that was a nice quote you dug up LK.

[mark]

[quote="Sharjeel"]

An example: First there was God /quote]





i've said this before here, but religion has not got an answer to "The Beginning". they just divert the problem to elsewhere. Sure, if god created the universe, who created him? To say he was always around is as crazy as saying its turtles all the way down. Religion doesn't explain anything, it adds an extra layer between us and the beginning. I don't buy into the God idea because we can explain almost everything without it, and actually adding the concept of god only complicates things unneccessarely, and doesn't answer the questions we cant solve!



The universe is such an incredible thing, the world is so complex, so diverse, so beautiful.. for me it would kinda spoil it if i knew something had planned it, had created it. it's so much more beautiful to see it as something which came about of itsself, ..

ok i can explain this in my mind, but can't put it into words. The idea of a God strikes me as a sort of a cop out, like saying "actually the universe isn't really that special, there had to be something there to plan and start it" some sort of a summer project cos the divine being (who's "always" been there) couldn't think of anything better to do with eternity.

Gods creating things, planning it out, thats not beautiful, its fake. artificial. tacky. Gods intervening in our everyday lives, souls, life after death.. i find these concepts unnecessary and they smell very strongly of man made fiction.



anyway, don't mean to belittle anyone's belief, i realise these things give comfort and meaning. i just don't like people planning anything big with these (pretty large) assumptions behind them. It's like Occams Razor (or something)

[Jaszalcatraz]

The universe is such an incredible thing, the world is so complex, so diverse, so beautiful.. for me it would kinda spoil it if i knew something had planned it, had created it. it's so much more beautiful to see it as something which came about of itsself, ..
ok i can explain this in my mind, but can't put it into words. The idea of a God strikes me as a sort of a cop out, like saying "actually the universe isn't really that special, there had to be something there to plan and start it" some sort of a summer project cos the divine being (who's "always" been there) couldn't think of anything better to do with eternity.
Gods creating things, planning it out, thats not beautiful, its fake. artificial. tacky. Gods intervening in our everyday lives, souls, life after death.. i find these concepts unnecessary and they smell very strongly of man made fiction.

Are you saying that only things that come into existance on their own are beautiful while something that was painstakingly planned, created by someone is "fake, artificial, tacky"?

Doesnt that make all Art, Movies, Music, Architecture unpretty?



Also what about all those beautiful miracle stories that we so often like and need to hear (to bring back hope into our lives). All these stories mostly end with someone praising the lord and thanking him for looking out for them.



Morever I strongly believe that to term religion as man made fiction is an insult to billions of people and their intelligence. Maybe you can question the faith of a 1000 believers of a particular cult and say that they were brainwashed but to call 6 billion people fools is being foolish yourself.



For the record - I dont believe in God either but strongly belive that there is some power somwhere that makes all things go "tic-toc".

[lizard king]

Morever I strongly believe that to term religion as man made fiction is an insult to billions of people and their intelligence. Maybe you can question the faith of a 1000 believers of a particular cult and say that they were brainwashed but to call 6 billion people fools is being foolish yourself.

lest we forget that the 6 billion people u have mentioned here were just 1000, not very long ago jasz, and it judt got passed down, just like cultures



And Sharjeel, I strongly believe in the theory that god is the fabrication of human fear. whatever he feared, whatever he was scared of, he related it to god. and there is is proof to all this, the neanderthals, the early humans, they have left evidence behind. when they discovered fire, they did nt know what it was, they related it to god, when they discovered hail storms, and whatever he did nt have aan answer for, or for the limited knowledge he had at that time, he held god responsible. well, there is nothign wrong in this belief, we as such live with many other delusions.

[DQ]

An example: First there was God /quote]


i've said this before here, but religion has not got an answer to "The Beginning". they just divert the problem to elsewhere. Sure, if god created the universe, who created him? To say he was always around is as crazy as saying its turtles all the way down. Religion doesn't explain anything, it adds an extra layer between us and the beginning. I don't buy into the God idea because we can explain almost everything without it, and actually adding the concept of god only complicates things unneccessarely, and doesn't answer the questions we cant solve!

The universe is such an incredible thing, the world is so complex, so diverse, so beautiful.. for me it would kinda spoil it if i knew something had planned it, had created it. it's so much more beautiful to see it as something which came about of itsself, ..
ok i can explain this in my mind, but can't put it into words. The idea of a God strikes me as a sort of a cop out, like saying "actually the universe isn't really that special, there had to be something there to plan and start it" some sort of a summer project cos the divine being (who's "always" been there) couldn't think of anything better to do with eternity.
Gods creating things, planning it out, thats not beautiful, its fake. artificial. tacky. Gods intervening in our everyday lives, souls, life after death.. i find these concepts unnecessary and they smell very strongly of man made fiction.

anyway, don't mean to belittle anyone's belief, i realise these things give comfort and meaning. i just don't like people planning anything big with these (pretty large) assumptions behind them. It's like Occams Razor (or something)

Ok so you make your stand clear here.



1. You do not beleive in the existance of God.

2. Morality etc are things that cannot be defined.

3. Rape, Murder, Same Sex Relationships are part of Humanity, though you do not condone it they should be generally accepted.

4. Relegion is a farce hence lets not go by its rules of morality, lets reshape the world according to our needs and frame rules for living according to our present need. (What we deem okai to do).



Hmm.

I cannot say God help you and your stand.



Anyway I have every right to protest against Unhuman acts (my stand will not change). Acts that are carried allowing animal instinct to precede over normal human instinct.



Now calling me to accept and respect it is absurd.

Accept and respect Rape, allow it to continue no way.

Accept and respect Murder, allow it to continue no way.

Accept and respect same sex relationship, allow it to continue no way.



Why?

Explanation - I will give the dog its right, but if dogs become a menance and start spreading Rabies, I will have to round them up and cull them.



Likewise if a rapist / murderer is loose and is a source of terror to the society will lock him up and cull if needed.



Same sex relationships, become a source for disease (Such AS Aids) and due to them

1. The risk of annhilation of Human race due to non reproduction.

2. The risk of spread of incureable disease.

I have every right to protest against their existance.

[CtrlAltDel]

Accept and respect Rape, allow it to continue no way.
Accept and respect Murder, allow it to continue no way.

dude, rape is a criminal sexual act bcoz its forced on an unwilling/ignorant victim. Muder is a crime for obvious reasons. there is no need of religion to state that. any such act with wud result in harm or any loss to another person is a crime and is punishable.

Accept and respect same sex relationship, allow it to continue no way.

as long as its not rape and between two consenting adults, whats the problem?

Same sex relationships, become a source for disease (Such AS Aids) and due to them
1. The risk of annhilation of Human race due to non reproduction.
2. The risk of spread of incureable disease.
I have every right to protest against their existance.

its false propaganda that same sex relations are the largest source of AIDS. AIDS is caused more by heterosexual contact as also by things like contaminated blood, IV needles etc.

fear of non-reproduction is pretty far fetched and wud occur only if the entire human race turns gay! even if that occured a few 100 years ahead, the human mind would find some artificial way of reproduction. as u yrself said, humans have a powerful and analytical mind....they can design anything!



and if u have the right to protest against the existance of gays, so have the whites against the existance of blacks, israelis against palestinians, upper castes against lower castes....or whatever the "human mind" is capable of thinking of....



DQ-ji, u r against gays maybe coz of the values u learnt frm childhood (religious/cultural/whatever). as long as your ideas dont harm anyone, u have the right to believe in them.

[mark]

Ok so you make your stand clear here.

1. You do not beleive in the existance of God.
2. Morality etc are things that cannot be defined.
3. Rape, Murder, Same Sex Relationships are part of Humanity, though you do not condone it they should be generally accepted.
4. Relegion is a farce hence lets not go by its rules of morality, lets reshape the world according to our needs and frame rules for living according to our present need. (What we deem okai to do).

Hmm.
I cannot say God help you and your stand.

Anyway I have every right to protest against Unhuman acts (my stand will not change). Acts that are carried allowing animal instinct to precede over normal human instinct.

Same sex relationships, become a source for disease (Such AS Aids) and due to them
1. The risk of annhilation of Human race due to non reproduction.
2. The risk of spread of incureable disease.
I have every right to protest against their existance.

DQ i'm sorry, but i'm not going to reply to you're post point by point (and i'm trying my hardest not to just tell you to _ off)



You have not understood a thing i've been saying. You think i've said that rape and murder should be generally acceptable? where the _ did i say or imply that? i was taking exception to your narrow and teenage view of humanity.





ok i will reply point by point.



1. You do not beleive in the existance of God.



No i don't.



2. Morality etc are things that cannot be defined.



morality has no meaning except in our minds, and is religiously and culturally defined, yes.



3. Rape, Murder, Same Sex Relationships are part of Humanity, though you do not condone it they should be generally accepted.



Please don't lump same-sex relationships in with rape and murder, it makes you look like an idiot. the only reason i brought those up was to challange your stupid views on the nature of the human race. Of course all of those things are part of humanity. you see things in black and white, life's not like that.



4. Relegion is a farce hence lets not go by its rules of morality, lets reshape the world according to our needs and frame rules for living according to our present need. (What we deem okai to do).



I've not said its a farce, i believe religion is a very human thing. probably essential to our continued existance, but not to base our laws and behavious on it (i.e. secular nations, secular laws, less caring what other people are doing with their lives)



CAD has countered the rest of your arguments better than i could have, i guess the thread got sidetracked 2 or three times and my views on the nature of humanity got mixed up with your views on homosexuality.

[DQ]

To both CAD and Mark.



I had a good intention of suggesting you to get holed.



But patience is what "MY God" has thought me. When he still continues to provide you after your constant disregard of him.



Anyway, you are unjustified in blaming me for clubbing rape and murder and same sex. At the drop of the hat you came up with the suggestion that they are part of humanity.



My only question after that is how do yo deem that part of humanity. And your answers give rise to my doubts about your sanity.



How difficult it is for you to accept that acts such as Rape, Murder and Same sex relationships are not human but the disintegration of the human mind allowing animal instinct to take over.



CAD as you see Rape and murder unjustifiable as you see the immediate effect of these gross acts. Likewise same sex relationships are unjustified as the long terms effects are disastrous.



It is not natural at all Full Stop.



As Sherry wrote a few posts ago how difficult is it for a human to accept the existancce of God. If you cannot comprehend it bad luck dude. You cannot force others to accept your POV of



No God , No Relegion, No morality = Secularism.

and hence lets be careless.

Lets redefine laws of acceptibality it may rather erode the values (for you its all in the mind, suggesting everybody to shun that is it?) of a billion people, after all we have to be acceptable ? Ha.



And for your theory of "its all in the MIND" so you suggest become mindless = idiot (which proves what you are).

[CtrlAltDel]

But patience is what "MY God" has thought me. When he still continues to provide you after your constant disregard of him.

did i bring God into this? this was a debate on homosexuality...

Anyway, you are unjustified in blaming me for clubbing rape and murder and same sex. At the drop of the hat you came up with the suggestion that they are part of humanity.
My only question after that is how do yo deem that part of humanity. And your answers give rise to my doubts about your sanity.
How difficult it is for you to accept that acts such as Rape, Murder and Same sex relationships are not human but the disintegration of the human mind allowing animal instinct to take over.

DQ, yr view of "humanity" is very utopian....u r taking it as a synonym of the term "humane". "humanity" is what humans do....whcih includes good as well as bad...that is what mark has been saying.
regardig "morals" its a man made concept abt what is right and what is wrong. the problem here is that different people have different views of what is "moral" and what isnt. u say homosexuality is immoral and i say it isnt, so who is right?
"morals" hasnt grown out of trees, so that we can pin point something and say if it is "moral" or not.

Likewise same sex relationships are unjustified as the long terms effects are disastrous.

its just 2 consenting ppl having sex for Gods sake! who cares what end they use? what long term effects r u talking abt? its not that entire humanity is turning gay slowly....some ppl are that way and thats it!

It is not natural at all Full Stop.

then why has it been in existance since times immemorial in all the cultures all over the world and among non-human animals too...?

As Sherry wrote a few posts ago how difficult is it for a human to accept the existancce of God. If you cannot comprehend it bad luck dude. You cannot force others to accept your POV

u shud remember here that God created gays too...

No God , No Relegion, No morality = Secularism.

no, Secularism = (equality of religions + non interference of religion in govt and policy making + right to practice any religion in private + law of the land is above any religion)

Lets redefine laws of acceptibality it may rather erode the values (for you its all in the mind, suggesting everybody to shun that is it?) of a billion people, after all we have to be acceptable ?

the values (morals) have changed over centuries and wud change in future too, whether u like it or not. look at homosexuality itself....its now acceptable according to "values" of many countries. who are you to insist that their citizens and laws are wrong...?

And for your theory of "its all in the MIND" so you suggest become mindless = idiot (which proves what you are).

i'd rather be mindless than have my mind enslaved and shut by rigid ideas about abstract concepts like "morality"

[mark]

But patience is what "MY God" has thought me. When he still continues to provide you after your constant disregard of him.

did i bring God into this? this was a debate on homosexuality...

Anyway, you are unjustified in blaming me for clubbing rape and murder and same sex. At the drop of the hat you came up with the suggestion that they are part of humanity.
My only question after that is how do yo deem that part of humanity. And your answers give rise to my doubts about your sanity.
How difficult it is for you to accept that acts such as Rape, Murder and Same sex relationships are not human but the disintegration of the human mind allowing animal instinct to take over.

DQ, yr view of "humanity" is very utopian....u r taking it as a synonym of the term "humane". "humanity" is what humans do....whcih includes good as well as bad...that is what mark has been saying.
regardig "morals" its a man made concept abt what is right and what is wrong. the problem here is that different people have different views of what is "moral" and what isnt. u say homosexuality is immoral and i say it isnt, so who is right?
"morals" hasnt grown out of trees, so that we can pin point something and say if it is "moral" or not.

Likewise same sex relationships are unjustified as the long terms effects are disastrous.

its just 2 consenting ppl having sex for Gods sake! who cares what end they use? what long term effects r u talking abt? its not that entire humanity is turning gay slowly....some ppl are that way and thats it!

It is not natural at all Full Stop.

then why has it been in existance since times immemorial in all the cultures all over the world and among non-human animals too...?

As Sherry wrote a few posts ago how difficult is it for a human to accept the existancce of God. If you cannot comprehend it bad luck dude. You cannot force others to accept your POV

u shud remember here that God created gays too...

No God , No Relegion, No morality = Secularism.

no, Secularism = (equality of religions + non interference of religion in govt and policy making + right to practice any religion in private + law of the land is above any religion)

Lets redefine laws of acceptibality it may rather erode the values (for you its all in the mind, suggesting everybody to shun that is it?) of a billion people, after all we have to be acceptable ?

the values (morals) have changed over centuries and wud change in future too, whether u like it or not. look at homosexuality itself....its now acceptable according to "values" of many countries. who are you to insist that their citizens and laws are wrong...?

And for your theory of "its all in the MIND" so you suggest become mindless = idiot (which proves what you are).

i'd rather be mindless than have my mind enslaved and shut by rigid ideas about abstract concepts like "morality"

great post CAD.



DQ, i admit that my beliefs lead me to uncomfortable places, it's difficult to argue about something when i don't believe in good, evil, heaven, hell, the soul, etc. However i can't help what i believe any more than you can, i try my best to make sense of the world from first principles, rather than the word of a God. It's not easy but it's interesting. I think that conservative saying about being careful your mind isn't so open that your brain falls out is right on the money, every day for me is trying to figue out at which point keeping an open mind leads to stupidity.



Anyhow, we all have our cultural blinkers on, i am as blinded by my lack of convictions as you are by your strong beliefs. I regret attacking religion in such a superior/condesending manner, sorry Sharjeel for that, as you say, who am i to tell others what to believe?



anyhow this is getting pretty heated, and not for good reasons i think, so as fun as it's been, i'll stick to homosexuality on this thread from now on.

[Q]

Ok bud, you stay stuck on your profoundness of openness.



I cannot shift stand on something that may have been rhetorically thought to me since childhood. (Does not necessarilly mean it has to be wrong.)



On a personal note I do take time to look at things rationally, and all this same sex thing does not make sense dude. Watched the series Queer as folk, spoke to quite a few people who are gay/lesbs and the only conclusion I could reach was meeting highly pervertic confused souls whose only intention is to create trouble.



Most of the discussions I have noted that to justify their acts they denounce God/Relegion/Morality on the other hand they also demand their rights in Relegion, want to purport them selves as moral people. Why ?



Take a closer look, as you are the preacher off openness, most of these groups are supported and backed by the wealthy PORN industry.



CAD taking exception to your statement, God created Human beings, they turned Gays out of choice. God created Gays is misplaced.



I do not have the patience to answer all your responses, which contradict themselves. Now you start talking about Humaneness and want to sideline humanity off the discussion, you also have accepted that these acts are carried out by animals too, and all I am asking you to look at is that this same animal instinct when suppresses the humaneness in human beings leads them to carry similar acts. Hard to GULP. I know. "Effects of openness."



Ah uh whats this Mark.

i'll stick to homosexuality

[mark]

Ah uh whats this Mark.

i'll stick to homosexuality

interpret it any way you like man.