Acceptibility...Possibility in HYD. Will it be ?

[akhilis2cool]

U saved me a lot of type writing energy Mark bhai.

ab dekhta hain DQ anna kya bolte

[Sharjeel]

DQ, people who "prepare culturally" to try to block change have historically been knocked on their arse. The only reason that India is the country it is today is that it has always imbraced and respected diversity.

*nods his old bald head at Mark's post*



Great post! Gets Grampy's stamp of approval!



A bit off the track, but I have started to feel now that ther is no such thing as the 'Indian Morality'. People who say that this would not happen in 'our India' are just gabbing.



I seriously doubt whether the good people in Mumbai, Delhi, and other 'hep' cities have left anything to imagination AFA sex and sexuality is concerned.

[DQ]

Mark what you are talking about is general acceptability.

General acceptability may not be the right thing. Time and again I have read on the Boards that Same sex inclination is Natural, through scriptures, through science whatever bring out something that says its natural.

Until then I will stand by this, the Human is the most powerful creature as it has been given the Brain, the synchronization of the brain and heart in Man is at its peak compared to other creations.

When man breaks this synch barrier, you and I commonly term it as Animal Instinct.

DQ, people who "prepare culturally" to try to block change have historically been knocked on their arse. The only reason that India is the country it is today is that it has always imbraced and respected diversity.

So very true mark, diversity that does not tarnish its modest image. In terms of giving up Modesty India has been rigid, and thats what makes it fasinating. may not be a developed or wealthy nation today but has always been an inspiring place.

Infact I have a good mind about starting a thread "What is it in India" will let my thoughts known when I start the thread

Also DQ, humanity is nothing but the sum total of every individual act, humanity is love, hate, murder, rape. It is the love of a mother for her child, and the lust of a stalker for her prey. Your rose tinted view of our species makes me want to laugh.

How can I help it Mark, its a pity that we club something as Unhuman and gross as Rape to be a part of Humanity. Rape and murder are crimes and unhuman acts, again the prevalance and acceptability of animal instincts make us club them with Humanity. Humanity is about love and respect, but respect does not mean we respect every act that is inhuman. Murder ,Rape, Porn , Paedophilia, Homophilia etc

Also, define "Indian morality" please? What is perfectly exceptable on the streets of Mumbai will cause outrage in a small Keralan village community. Would you agree that there were many things before the british raj that were acceptable that are no longer? and visa versa?
If your "Indian morality" exists at all, then surely it is a constantly evolving thing, changing with the times and the places it is applied?

You need to understand the fabric of the country, infact the basis of morality exists and is prevalent all across. Acts of Individuals do not mean that it has evolved to a stage where India to starts accepting inhuman and unnatural acts and then go about proposing world peace and democracy world over.

[mark]

Mark what you are talking about is general acceptability.
General acceptability may not be the right thing. Time and again I have read on the Boards that Same sex inclination is Natural, through scriptures, through science whatever bring out something that says its natural.
Until then I will stand by this, the Human is the most powerful creature as it has been given the Brain, the synchronization of the brain and heart in Man is at its peak compared to other creations.
When man breaks this synch barrier, you and I commonly term it as Animal Instinct.

DQ, people who "prepare culturally" to try to block change have historically been knocked on their arse. The only reason that India is the country it is today is that it has always imbraced and respected diversity.

So very true mark, diversity that does not tarnish its modest image. In terms of giving up Modesty India has been rigid, and thats what makes it fasinating. may not be a developed or wealthy nation today but has always been an inspiring place.

Infact I have a good mind about starting a thread "What is it in India" will let my thoughts known when I start the thread

Also DQ, humanity is nothing but the sum total of every individual act, humanity is love, hate, murder, rape. It is the love of a mother for her child, and the lust of a stalker for her prey. Your rose tinted view of our species makes me want to laugh.

How can I help it Mark, its a pity that we club something as Unhuman and gross as Rape to be a part of Humanity. Rape and murder are crimes and unhuman acts, again the prevalance and acceptability of animal instincts make us club them with Humanity. Humanity is about love and respect, but respect does not mean we respect every act that is inhuman. Murder ,Rape, Porn , Paedophilia, Homophilia etc

Also, define "Indian morality" please? What is perfectly exceptable on the streets of Mumbai will cause outrage in a small Keralan village community. Would you agree that there were many things before the british raj that were acceptable that are no longer? and visa versa?
If your "Indian morality" exists at all, then surely it is a constantly evolving thing, changing with the times and the places it is applied?

You need to understand the fabric of the country, infact the basis of morality exists and is prevalent all across. Acts of Individuals do not mean that it has evolved to a stage where India to starts accepting inhuman and unnatural acts and then go about proposing world peace and democracy world over.

Good response. I think we differ on 2 fundamental points.

Firstly I believe we are bipedal, tool using animals of the species Homo Sapiens. Nothing more, nothing less.

Secondly, I think that your definition of humanity is only looking at one side of the coin. If so many humans indulge in rape, murder, violence, then these are human activities. You say all of these are acts of individuals, i've already said that humanity can be nothing more or less than the sum total of every act ever done by a human. I hate the words "good" and "evil" cos their fuzzy, but we are not a good or evil species, we're just a species.



Humanity is a multi-faceted jewel, if you only look at it from 1 angle then you won't see all the faces. As it's impossible to see every face at the one time, we have a tendency to classify things as human and inhuman, good and evil, virtueous and perverse. I would say homophilia is a very human thing, as is your homophobic reaction to it. Bigotry, racism, altruism, love. we're all capable of all these things, sometimes all at once.

[CtrlAltDel]

i lean towards mark's views in this matter. i too believe humans are just another animal species, but with a more evolved brain nevertheless



looking at it on the religious side, we can also say that God has created homos and rapists with a purpose...good/evil, straight/gay, black/white...whatever, all are God's creations

[mark]

i lean towards mark's views in this matter. i too believe humans are just another animal species, but with a more evolved brain nevertheless

looking at it on the religious side, we can also say that God has created homos and rapists with a purpose...good/evil, straight/gay, black/white...whatever, all are God's creations

more evolved is misleading, think "evolved into a different niche".

That's one thing i took exception to about DQ's assumptions, that we are the most powerful species on the planet. Try going up against a Black Bear in a fist fight, or a shark in a swimming contest, or a Leopard in a sprint. And if you assume we're at the top of the food chain, try spending a week in the scottish highlands, you'll be eaten alive by midges.

Our mind is very loosly niched, it can be said, in that we can apply our mental powers to a wide variety of problems. That is fairly unique, at least to the level that we do it. However, the Hawks mind has a far greater capacity for trajectory calculations, ballistics estimates, flight dynamics, etc, a bat has far greater spacial awareness, etc.

Humans have a unique capability to shape the world to our needs, dogs can lick their own genitals.



If you compare species, you do it in human terms, which is silly. Might as well say, out of me and CAD, CAD is better at being Indian.

Might as well go to the special olympics and claim your're a better athlete than the competitors of wheelchair basketball, as you can jump higher, run faster, and climb better.

[CtrlAltDel]

"evolved into a different niche".

that sounds more apt i must admit.

[lizard king]

firstly, qualified arguements from all DQ, Mark and CAD all of which make their stands clear on how they view existence, culture, evolution and cultural evolution



from DQ remarks about Indian culture and it closing the door on homosexuality. firstly we need to define as to what it is. what is indian culture mate? how do u define it? do u define it as the rules that were followed by the non religious early people of the indus valley?a city based where prostitution was legal and there were community places for origies?

or do u define i9t as the culture brought to this land by the nomadic aryans when they conquered, brought in their gods and rituals of animal sacrifice and relative conservativity when compared to those of the indus people?

or the culture of the vedic people who preached brahminism? or that of the later sanskrit ages where prostitution and polygamy were still carried on, women were enterpreneurs and held a high place in the society unlike in today s india.?

or do u define it as the culture brought in by the muslim ravages that plundered this land over and again bringing in the concept of hiding our women from the neioghbours, just to keep thejm safe from them?

or that of the great mughals who did a great job in unifying india,culturally and artistically, but at the same time, changing the society drastically?

or that of the western traders who later happened to rule us for a couple of centuries who could nt really leave a stamp of their culture on us except for the language and the clothes.

we do have a proud tradition of imbibing foreign cultures and traditions and making them a part of what we call our culture. without all thtese cultures, there is no indian culture, and we in these days have to consider ourselves lucky to live in the age of a great transition, the acquisition of a new culture called hollywood, and it is not upto us stop it. what has to happen will happen in the course of time, and if anything that promotes love and caring towards fellow human beings is evolving, it is a good thing.





and comign to mark s statements about humanity and evolutio0n, this for some reason is a dear topic to me, mark i do share a few common ideas with u and differ in a few, splly about the super evolution of us as humans. it si very true that every animal is evloving, the fastest being bacteria with a greater diversity and a greater adaptability, but again what differentiates from these bacteria, or even mice/rat which are supposed to take upon thye world 2000 years from now if they evolve at the same speed is that we are humans, we can feel for each other, the way we take advantage of the other evolving and hinder them from using us, we are the only species in this biosphere who can _ up the entire biosphere with the click of a button. we are partially the only species who can defy environment and create environments accordding to our whims and fancies. that my friend , makes us special.

for example, i behead atleast 70 mice per month, i feel bad about my violent behavior, but it is for a greater human cause, i dont think any other animal on this planet does the same thing.

[mark]

firstly, qualified arguements from all DQ, Mark and CAD all of which make their stands clear on how they view existence, culture, evolution and cultural evolution

from DQ remarks about Indian culture and it closing the door on homosexuality. firstly we need to define as to what it is. what is indian culture mate? how do u define it? do u define it as the rules that were followed by the non religious early people of the indus valley?a city based where prostitution was legal and there were community places for origies?
or do u define i9t as the culture brought to this land by the nomadic aryans when they conquered, brought in their gods and rituals of animal sacrifice and relative conservativity when compared to those of the indus people?
or the culture of the vedic people who preached brahminism? or that of the later sanskrit ages where prostitution and polygamy were still carried on, women were enterpreneurs and held a high place in the society unlike in today s india.?
or do u define it as the culture brought in by the muslim ravages that plundered this land over and again bringing in the concept of hiding our women from the neioghbours, just to keep thejm safe from them?
or that of the great mughals who did a great job in unifying india,culturally and artistically, but at the same time, changing the society drastically?
or that of the western traders who later happened to rule us for a couple of centuries who could nt really leave a stamp of their culture on us except for the language and the clothes.
we do have a proud tradition of imbibing foreign cultures and traditions and making them a part of what we call our culture. without all thtese cultures, there is no indian culture, and we in these days have to consider ourselves lucky to live in the age of a great transition, the acquisition of a new culture called hollywood, and it is not upto us stop it. what has to happen will happen in the course of time, and if anything that promotes love and caring towards fellow human beings is evolving, it is a good thing.


and comign to mark s statements about humanity and evolutio0n, this for some reason is a dear topic to me, mark i do share a few common ideas with u and differ in a few, splly about the super evolution of us as humans. it si very true that every animal is evloving, the fastest being bacteria with a greater diversity and a greater adaptability, but again what differentiates from these bacteria, or even mice/rat which are supposed to take upon thye world 2000 years from now if they evolve at the same speed is that we are humans, we can feel for each other, the way we take advantage of the other evolving and hinder them from using us, we are the only species in this biosphere who can _ up the entire biosphere with the click of a button. we are partially the only species who can defy environment and create environments accordding to our whims and fancies. that my friend , makes us special.
for example, i behead atleast 70 mice per month, i feel bad about my violent behavior, but it is for a greater human cause, i dont think any other animal on this planet does the same thing.

yeah i agree with you in that humans have some very unique qualities, however it is easily possible to overstate how unique we are as we are looking at the world from the viewpoint of a human. I think these unique properties are an emergent property of our large brains (using tools, our original niche, required large amounts of brain power, and solving problems using tools required that to be very general, applied to a broad catagory of problems). naturally if you start clubbing things with bones in order to kill them, using flint to skin them, trees to dry the skins in order to wear them to keep warm, and continue along that line, sooner or later you'll get the personal computer, nuclear warfare, and fullhyd.com

[lizard king]

firstly, qualified arguements from all DQ, Mark and CAD all of which make their stands clear on how they view existence, culture, evolution and cultural evolution
uman cause, i dont think any other animal on this planet does the same thing.

yeah i agree with you in that humans have some very unique qualities, however it is easily possible to overstate how unique we are as we are looking at the world from the viewpoint of a human. I think these unique properties are an emergent property of our large brains (using tools, our original niche, required large amounts of brain power, and solving problems using tools required that to be very general, applied to a broad catagory of problems). naturally if you start clubbing things with bones in order to kill them, using flint to skin them, trees to dry the skins in order to wear them to keep warm, and continue along that line, sooner or later you'll get the personal computer, nuclear warfare, and fullhyd.com

and i think it is a cycle and i do believe in the theory of use and disuse over a large period of time. early human used his brain to make small things, hsi brain capacity increased and in return made him use it even better and from then... here we are,in fullhyd. the most technologically advanced creature in the "GOD" s creation. not sure who created him/her/it though.



n hey, DQ... did u hear about the speculations that jesus was a poof?

[CtrlAltDel]

n hey, DQ... did u hear about the speculations that jesus was a poof?

:lol: thats it...now this post gonna disappear very soon

[lizard king]

n hey, DQ... did u hear about the speculations that jesus was a poof?

:lol: thats it...now this post gonna disappear very soon

hey CAD, i was nt joking man, it was in one of the papers a few days ago. some one in one of the churches came up with this stupendous idea.

[Sharjeel]

Thus, we come to the question: Who do/should we believe, the Christ/Religion Attackers or Followers?



To disprove Christ (AS) or any Messenger/Giod would be to prove wrong whole Civilisations.



Somebody who wants to say that Christ (AS) did not exist, will have to first hunt back in time and submit some authentic proof that Christ (AS) or xyz did not exist, or was a fake.



If we take the example of Christ(AS), then we have written proof, and also the (un-written) traditions and sayings and stories about him and his compainons. To prove that he is a poof or he did not exist, then all these things must be systematically and 'clearly' disproven, which is a very big and quite impossible really, because then you would be disproving Christanity and the Holy books of atleast three religions and whatnot.



Who knows, maybe somebody, after a thousand years, will say Mahatma Gandhi was fake...

[lizard king]

Thus, we come to the question: Who do/should we believe, the Christ/Religion Attackers or Followers?

To disprove Christ (AS) or any Messenger/Giod would be to prove wrong whole Civilisations.

Somebody who wants to say that Christ (AS) did not exist, will have to first hunt back in time and submit some authentic proof that Christ (AS) or xyz did not exist, or was a fake.

If we take the example of Christ(AS), then we have written proof, and also the (un-written) traditions and sayings and stories about him and his compainons. To prove that he is a poof or he did not exist, then all these things must be systematically and 'clearly' disproven, which is a very big and quite impossible really, because then you would be disproving Christanity and the Holy books of atleast three religions and whatnot.

Who knows, maybe somebody, after a thousand years, will say Mahatma Gandhi was fake...

or in the same lines, 1000 years down the lane, mahatma gandhi would actually be god, u know... just in the lines of other heroes like krishna and rama, who according to me were just another mahatma gandhi.

same with moses, actually moses cocmes closest toe mahatma gandhi s description

[Sharjeel]

or in the same lines, 1000 years down the lane, mahatma gandhi would actually be god, u know... just in the lines of other heroes like krishna and rama, who according to me were just another mahatma gandhi.
same with moses, actually moses cocmes closest toe mahatma gandhi s description

true. Wish i cld have an argument to that, but it is a fact that you state, and nobody can argue with facts (which sorta proves my point )

[mark]

or in the same lines, 1000 years down the lane, mahatma gandhi would actually be god, u know... just in the lines of other heroes like krishna and rama, who according to me were just another mahatma gandhi.
same with moses, actually moses cocmes closest toe mahatma gandhi s description

true. Wish i cld have an argument to that, but it is a fact that you state, and nobody can argue with facts (which sorta proves my point )

Rex beat me to it, very few people dispute that there lived a man named Jesus, very few people dispute that he was a prophet, but his own people don't believe he was the son of God.



It is impossible to say what changes to the legends have taken place over the years. Many Catholics around the world believe that Mary has always been considered a virgin, however this notion was only brought into catholic dogma in the 19th century by papal decree. Basically, what the pope says is seen as the word of God, and no future pope can contradict that. After almost 2000 years of popes, that has built up to a hell of a mess of papal decree, uncontradictible word of God passed on by 264 individuals over 20 centurys.





Fact of the day: The current Pope, John Paul II, was born Karol Wojtyla, in Poland.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Very interesting and mature discussion going on here. My two paisa follows:

I agree with Masala man, people become legends, the stories of legends pass from mouth to mouth and over years they become gods. Just look back 200 years, Sai baba was a hermit... and in 200 years he has become a God with temples built all over India. He is Probably the only 'God' who was photographed. If he were born in Europe or any other country, we would have had a new religion. But India, and Hinduism especially, abosrbs and assimilate every religion and culture. Sai baba became a Hindu god.

Sometimes it makes me wonder, what would have happened if Jesus Christ were born in India. May be we would have had no christianity and Hinduism would have had one more God.

[mark]

Sometimes it makes me wonder, what would have happened if Jesus Christ were born in India. May be we would have had no christianity and Hinduism would have had one more God.

haha very interesting! an alternate reality worth writing a book on. I think you're right, with Jesus it was a "right time-right place" type thing, and reading the ancient Jewish scriptures put the notion of Messiah into his head. If in India no doubt he would have been considered an Avatar of Vishnu, or something. (actually after writing that i did some digging, there is some internet speculation that JC was the 10th Avatar of Vishnu)

[Xeno]

or in the same lines, 1000 years down the lane, mahatma gandhi would actually be god, u know... just in the lines of other heroes like krishna and rama, who according to me were just another mahatma gandhi.
same with moses, actually moses cocmes closest toe mahatma gandhi s description

I cannot but agree with you when you say that lizard,you are more intelligent than I thought you were,to think that any man is god is so obviously wrong to me. I don't understand how everyone doesn't see this.

[mark]

or in the same lines, 1000 years down the lane, mahatma gandhi would actually be god, u know... just in the lines of other heroes like krishna and rama, who according to me were just another mahatma gandhi.
same with moses, actually moses cocmes closest toe mahatma gandhi s description

I cannot but agree with you when you say that lizard,you are more intelligent than I thought you were,to think that any man is god is so obviously wrong to me. I don't understand how everyone doesn't see this.

reread his post. he wasn't advocating this, he was just saying that's what'll happen.

[Xeno]

Whose post

[Mayavi Morpheus]

or in the same lines, 1000 years down the lane, mahatma gandhi would actually be god, u know... just in the lines of other heroes like krishna and rama, who according to me were just another mahatma gandhi.
same with moses, actually moses cocmes closest toe mahatma gandhi s description

I cannot but agree with you when you say that lizard,you are more intelligent than I thought you were,to think that any man is god is so obviously wrong to me. I don't understand how everyone doesn't see this.

Why is god made out to be such a supreme creature/power, that no man can be equated to him?

Is there is no relation between god and man except that of a creator and creation? why did he create us in the first place? What does religion has to say about this? Is the purpose of existence only to serve the creator and nothing else?

[DQ]

Good response. I think we differ on 2 fundamental points.
Firstly I believe we are bipedal tool using animals of the species Homo Sapiens. Nothing more, nothing less.

Ok. If we define ourselves biologically. Agreed.

But do you also agree that we have something called us Brain, a highly developed one ?

Yes you do agree, and have aptly stated as well,

I think these unique properties are an emergent property of our large brains

Now these brains are backed by an extremly efficient property named the heart, and a synchronization of the two is exemplary in us the "bipedal/Homo Sapiens/Humans"

Now this gives us the ability to over come an instinct found in all creations, which modern science has termed as "Animal Instinct"

What makes us powerful,

Not a fight with the Bear, not the swim with the shark, nor our inability to lick our genitals, but again as aptly stated by you

Humans have a unique capability to shape the world to our needs

.

more evolved is misleading, think "evolved into a different niche".

Now thats where you and I do not agree, we have not evolved as per our needs, but have been given the ability to evolve according to our need. There is a difference between evolved and having the ability to evolve.



How do I second it, its our ability to create a device that races faster then the cheetah and the shark, which has more power then the bear. That is what makes us the most powerful. If any other creature had this they would have taken predence over us.



How do we obtain this powers, is by putting the synch of heart and mind to best use. The greater the control to synch this power the exemplary the person. The moment we start losing control of this synch, we allow the animal instinct to take control and once that happens we can murder, rape, indulge in same sex relationships etc etc.



And again I repeat, you continue to claim that all this forms humanity, no its a pity that these people are humans who commit acts that are unhuman (led by animal instinct). Looking at things in a multiple angle does not make wrong to right. Humanity remains humanity even if the majority turn to acts that are unhuman.



1. Mayavi and Malakie I will proceed with Indian values and morality after this issue is sorted, the issue about allowing animal instinct to take precedence and clubbing it to be human.



2. Malakie I advise that you do not resort to blasphemy, you may have read that in the Article in The Age, but that is the extreme use of free speech. I consider it blasphemous and advice that it not be repeated on these boards again.



ALSO ADVISE THE MODS TO REMOVE MALAKIES POST ON JESUS. WHICH IS SLANDEROUS AND BLASPHEMOUS.



Malkie I HAVE TRIED TO STAY CLEAR ON RELEGION IN THIS TOPIC, BUT IF YOU WANT TO GET BLASPHEMOUS THEN BELEIVE ME YOU WILL REGRET IT.

[mark]

in the beginning, there was darkness. Then, man created God.

[DQ]

Good response. I think we differ on 2 fundamental points.
Firstly I believe we are bipedal tool using animals of the species Homo Sapiens. Nothing more, nothing less.

Ok. If we define ourselves biologically. Agreed.

But do you also agree that we have something called us Brain, a highly developed one ?

Yes you do agree, and have aptly stated as well,

I think these unique properties are an emergent property of our large brains

Now these brains are backed by an extremly efficient property named the heart, and a synchronization of the two is exemplary in us the "bipedal/Homo Sapiens/Humans"

Now this gives us the ability to over come an instinct found in all creations, which modern science has termed as "Animal Instinct"

What makes us powerful,

Not a fight with the Bear, not the swim with the shark, nor our inability to lick our genitals, but again as aptly stated by you

Humans have a unique capability to shape the world to our needs

.

more evolved is misleading, think "evolved into a different niche".

Now thats where you and I do not agree, we have not evolved as per our needs, but have been given the ability to evolve according to our need. There is a difference between evolved and having the ability to evolve.



How do I second it, its our ability to create a device that races faster then the cheetah and the shark, which has more power then the bear. That is what makes us the most powerful. If any other creature had this they would have taken predence over us.



How do we obtain this powers, is by putting the synch of heart and mind to best use. The greater the control to synch this power the exemplary the person. The moment we start losing control of this synch, we allow the animal instinct to take control and once that happens we can murder, rape, indulge in same sex relationships etc etc.



And again I repeat, you continue to claim that all this forms humanity, no its a pity that these people are humans who commit acts that are unhuman (led by animal instinct). Looking at things in a multiple angle does not make wrong to right. Humanity remains humanity even if the majority turn to acts that are unhuman.



1. Mayavi and Malakie I will proceed with Indian values and morality after this issue is sorted, the issue about allowing animal instinct to take precedence and clubbing it to be human.



2. Malakie I advise that you do not resort to blasphemy, you may have read that in the Article in The Age, but that is the extreme use of free speech. I consider it blasphemous and advice that it not be repeated on these boards again.



ALSO ADVISE THE MODS TO REMOVE MALAKIES POST ON JESUS. WHICH IS SLANDEROUS AND BLASPHEMOUS.



Malkie I HAVE TRIED TO STAY CLEAR ON RELEGION IN THIS TOPIC, BUT IF YOU WANT TO GET BLASPHEMOUS THEN BELEIVE ME YOU WILL REGRET IT.