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by CtrlAltDel » Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:40 am

DQ wrote:Comming to Jinnah, today is day one since I have started viewing him out of the villanous role I had perceived him to be and this statement has made me think about and read about him even more,

'Few individuals significantly alter the course of history. Fewer still modify the map of the world. Hardly anyone can be credited with creating a nation-state. Mohammad Ali Jinnah did all three.'
Jinnah is not definitely a villain as indians generally perceive him to be.



when he gave voice and strength to the demand for a seperate muslim majority homeland (note: he did not want an Islamic Country as pakistan exists today), he did what he thot was right, based on the situation in those days.



thanx to the Brits, the pre-independence era saw the hindu-muslim relation reach a nadir in most parts of the country. the demand for a seperate homeland was there since long, but no one took it seriously, incl Jinnah who was a staunch congress-wallah (but oppossed to Gandhi). Jinnah himself was a non-religious liberal muslim who followed a western life style, never prayed, ate pork etc.



when he was humiliated in the Congress's annual conclave in the 20s, that was the last straw, plus the dangerous communal situation, convinced him that the community woudnt get a fair deal politically in a hindu majority india. this situation also convinced many muslim intellectuals like poet Iqbal (remember that Iqbal wrote the song "Sare Jahaan Se Achcha" and he is respected in india too. his memorial also exists in hydbad as the "Eagle" statue at the junction near AG's Office).



in hindsight what Jinnah and other muslim intellectuals demanded seems to be an error, but if u look at it from the point of view of those times, i think they were justified.
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by Mayavi Morpheus » Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:58 am

Well put CAD. I would like to add one more thing to the above: A seperate pakistan was not Jinnahs original idea, but Iqbals idea. Though Iqbal didnt coin the term 'pakistan', it was him who started the whole seperate nation for muslims thing and got Jinnah to lead them (at that time Jinnah was in UK practicing Law I guess).

Jinnah succeeded in getting a seperate Islamic state carved out of India but that doesnt make him a great leader as his achievement is no different from that of Sheik Mujibur rehman of Bangladesh. Infact Jinnah didnt face any major opposition (he always had the support of Britishers) unlike sheik mujibur rehman.

Anyway, as CAd said, in hindsight Jinnahs decision has proven to be a bad one... but lot of water and carcasses have passed under the bridge since then and we should move on.
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by DQ » Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:17 am

CtrlAltDel wrote:
DQ wrote:Comming to Jinnah, today is day one since I have started viewing him out of the villanous role I had perceived him to be and this statement has made me think about and read about him even more,

'Few individuals significantly alter the course of history. Fewer still modify the map of the world. Hardly anyone can be credited with creating a nation-state. Mohammad Ali Jinnah did all three.'
Jinnah is not definitely a villain as indians generally perceive him to be.

when he gave voice and strength to the demand for a seperate muslim majority homeland (note: he did not want an Islamic Country as pakistan exists today), he did what he thot was right, based on the situation in those days.

thanx to the Brits, the pre-independence era saw the hindu-muslim relation reach a nadir in most parts of the country. the demand for a seperate homeland was there since long, but no one took it seriously, incl Jinnah who was a staunch congress-wallah (but oppossed to Gandhi). Jinnah himself was a non-religious liberal muslim who followed a western life style, never prayed, ate pork etc.

when he was humiliated in the Congress's annual conclave in the 20s, that was the last straw, plus the dangerous communal situation, convinced him that the community woudnt get a fair deal politically in a hindu majority india. this situation also convinced many muslim intellectuals like poet Iqbal (remember that Iqbal wrote the song "Sare Jahaan Se Achcha" and he is respected in india too. his memorial also exists in hydbad as the "Eagle" statue at the junction near AG's Office).

in hindsight what Jinnah and other muslim intellectuals demanded seems to be an error, but if u look at it from the point of view of those times, i think they were justified.




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by lonewolf » Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:36 am

Where is the option for Bhagat Singh????
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by CtrlAltDel » Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:25 am

i dont think Bhagat Singh could be classified as an "Influential Leader"
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by lonewolf » Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:29 am

CtrlAltDel wrote:i dont think Bhagat Singh could be classified as an "Influential Leader"
.. because he was classified as a terrorist by the British? (its on the BBC site!
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by Mayavi Morpheus » Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:43 am

Now they cant step back and vote him as great leader, can they? Kinda proves that the whole vote thing is a farce... and look who won... JINNAH!!! (Thanks to some Indian jingos who repeatedly voted for Jinnah and made sure that he won :mrgreen: )
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by CtrlAltDel » Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:54 am

lonewolf wrote:
CtrlAltDel wrote:i dont think Bhagat Singh could be classified as an "Influential Leader"
.. because he was classified as a terrorist by the British? (its on the BBC site!
no...like Gandhi or Jinnah, Bhagat singh did not influence millions of Indians and led them against the British. he was a gr8 revolutionary alrite but we have to admit that he was not that big a leader. he became a household name all over India only during his famous courtcase and subsequent hanging. same with other revolutionaries like Azad.



moreover, if u look at the ppl listed in that poll, its full of personalities who became famous internationally. how many out of India heard of Bhagat Singh?
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by akhilis2cool » Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:59 am

CtrlAltDel wrote:...like Gandhi or Jinnah, Bhagat singh did not influence millions of Indians and led them against the British. he was a gr8 revolutionary alrite but we have to admit that he was not that big a leader. he became a household name all over India only during his famous courtcase and subsequent hanging. same with other revolutionaries like Azad. moreover, if u look at the ppl listed in that poll, its full of personalities who became famous internationally. how many out of India heard of Bhagat Singh?
People dont remember bhagat singh as a gr8 leader coz he never got a chance....he was hanged when he was all of 20 (or was it 23). the britishers knew how big a threat he was....so they eliminated him very early...he sure had the potential.
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by CtrlAltDel » Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:05 am

akhilis2cool wrote:
CtrlAltDel wrote:...like Gandhi or Jinnah, Bhagat singh did not influence millions of Indians and led them against the British. he was a gr8 revolutionary alrite but we have to admit that he was not that big a leader. he became a household name all over India only during his famous courtcase and subsequent hanging. same with other revolutionaries like Azad. moreover, if u look at the ppl listed in that poll, its full of personalities who became famous internationally. how many out of India heard of Bhagat Singh?
People dont remember bhagat singh as a gr8 leader coz he never got a chance....he was hanged when he was all of 20 (or was it 23). the britishers knew how big a threat he was....so they eliminated him very early...he sure had the potential.
yes...if he had lived, he might have become as popular as Gandhi...but that didnt happen and the poll reflects the actual picture by ignoring Bhagat Singh
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by akhilis2cool » Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:16 am

I can't believe Jinnah won the poll. :shock:
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by DQ » Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:18 am

CtrlAltDel wrote:moreover, if u look at the ppl listed in that poll, its full of personalities who became famous internationally. how many out of India heard of Bhagat Singh?




True again CAD!!



If international acceptability and popularity is the criteria then Rajiv Gandhi should also have been listed.



Rajiv can be termed as the founder of present day India, the one who drove India and set a solid foundation to launch into the 21st century.



His positive energy was a determental factor for the development of the entire region.

There has been no better charismatic leader in these parts of the Globe since Rajiv Gandhi.

Change and success was being felt in SAARC nations.

His untimely death was an unfortunate event for the entire region.



Easily the winner and worthy of global accolades.
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by lonewolf » Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:30 am

That poll was all bullshit!



Even polls like "What did you have for breakfast today? (1) bread (2) cookies (3) none of the above" would make better sense.
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by CtrlAltDel » Wed Dec 29, 2004 12:54 pm

such polls are not scientific. anybody can rig the result. it has ultimately become a poll-war between Indian and Pakistani surfers. Apparently the Paki surfers participated in larger numbers :roll:
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by akhilis2cool » Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:03 pm

CtrlAltDel wrote:such polls are not scientific. anybody can rig the result. it has ultimately become a poll-war between Indian and Pakistani surfers. Apparently the Paki surfers participated in larger numbers :roll:
of course, they do not have nething else to do :P
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by Mayavi Morpheus » Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:05 pm

CtrlAltDel wrote:such polls are not scientific. anybody can rig the result. it has ultimately become a poll-war between Indian and Pakistani surfers. Apparently the Paki surfers participated in larger numbers :roll:




I know a Indian forum where they voted for Jinnah enmasse just to prove that the poll is stupid and putting Gandi on list with any other leader is insulting to gandhi. And yeah, all of them are true jingos are paki haters :wink:
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by CtrlAltDel » Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:18 pm

Mayavi Morpheus wrote:...putting Gandi on list with any other leader is insulting to gandhi....
thats crazy! its deifying a human to an extreme...:roll:
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by Mayavi Morpheus » Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:26 pm

Well I differ, it is indeed an insult to have Gandhi and Zia ul haq on the same list :evil: Jinnah, nehru, bose etc are ok... but Zia ul huq? gimme a break.
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by CtrlAltDel » Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:31 pm

why the f*** did they put Zia in the list? what did he achieve other than Talibanising Pakistan?
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by The Scorpion's Sting » Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:49 pm

The Indo-Pak partition as my grand-dad put it: (and he was a member of the Youth Congress during those times.)



It seems that Jinnah wanted PMship of India (and he had cancer so every1 knew that he was gonna die in a few months anyway), but MK Gandhi wanted Nehru to b the 1st PM of India as he had links with the Soviets. While this dispute was going on, the British butted in and as somebody said there was already a demand for a separate State but nobody took it seriously, this was wht the Brits capitalized on and thus formed India & Pakistan.
Things are supposed to happen the way they happen. And the reason they happen the way the happen is because you try to make them happen in a certain way and may or may not be succesful.
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by akhilis2cool » Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:53 pm

Nehru too played major role in partition by accepting the proposal given by the britishers. he was in too much hurry to become the PM :x
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by The Scorpion's Sting » Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:55 pm

akhilis2cool wrote:Nehru too played major role in partition by accepting the proposal given by the britishers. he was in too much hurry to become the PM :x




Thats true but only because he had Gandhi's support, had Gandhi told him to back off, Jinnah wud bcome the 1st PM and India wud b complete. This is mere speculation though.
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by akhilis2cool » Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:01 pm

The Scorpion's Sting wrote:
akhilis2cool wrote:Nehru too played major role in partition by accepting the proposal given by the britishers. he was in too much hurry to become the PM :x


Thats true but only because he had Gandhi's support, had Gandhi told him to back off, Jinnah wud bcome the 1st PM and India wud b complete. This is mere speculation though.
AFAIK Gandhi was never in favor of the partition.

he was kept in the dark by nehru and shastri abt accepting the proposal.
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by Mayavi Morpheus » Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:05 pm

Well, AFAIK, Gandhi was never in support of partition... he wanted to accept every demand of Jinnah for sake of united India... but Nehru, Patel and even Azad didnt agree with Jinnah. Jinnah wanted 36% reservation in parliament for muslims irrespective of population with priministership which was not acceptable to congress.
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by The Scorpion's Sting » Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:08 pm

akhilis2cool wrote:
The Scorpion's Sting wrote:
akhilis2cool wrote:Nehru too played major role in partition by accepting the proposal given by the britishers. he was in too much hurry to become the PM :x


Thats true but only because he had Gandhi's support, had Gandhi told him to back off, Jinnah wud bcome the 1st PM and India wud b complete. This is mere speculation though.
AFAIK Gandhi was never in favor of the partition.
he was kept in the dark by nehru and shastri abt accepting the proposal.




Lets face it, Gandhi was power-hungry. He even agreed to Dominion Status, only after Bhagat Singh did they demand for Poorna Swaraj. He expected Nehru to be a puppet in his hands, much like Sonia Gandhi & MMS.



Nathu Ram Godse's last wish was 2 mins on All India Radio, he said that he wud bring out such facts that nobody wud ever remeber Gandhi again. But this wish wasn't granted as he was the "Father Of The Nation".
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