What is Zionism

[akhilis2cool]

Why do you get the meanings of simple sentences soo wrong? where does the mistake lie,,with you or me?
I make such a simple statement and you just go off and on about something that it did not say anything about in the first place.

Reality, say hello to DQ...!!

Bwahhahahaaahaha!

[DQ]

I did not want to post a reply but I had to find out the answer.
Why do you get the meanings of simple sentences soo wrong? where does the mistake lie,,with you or me?
I make such a simple statement and you just go off and on about something that it did not say anything about in the first place.
I would like to elaborate but at the moment I am tired and hungry,,so some other time.
Just read my sentence (which you quoted in your previous post) in context and not out of it.

Simple you say "Zionism and spiritual gains make sense."



How ?



To save you the trouble I added the other questions.



Displacing a million people is spiritual gain. ?

Blatant refusal to adhere to UN policies is attaining spiritual gain.?

.......goes on.



And all this makes sense. Does it ?

[Habitual Perfectionist]

Displacing a million people is spiritual gain. ?
Blatant refusal to adhere to UN policies is attaining spiritual gain.?
.......goes on.

And all this makes sense. Does it ?

No it doesn't. Because your logic is faulty. Just like you cannot find fault with Islam for the actions of "Islamic" terrorists, you can't find fault with Zionism for the excesses in Palestine. The ideals aren't faulty...the execution is.

[DQ]

Displacing a million people is spiritual gain. ?
Blatant refusal to adhere to UN policies is attaining spiritual gain.?
.......goes on.

And all this makes sense. Does it ?

No it doesn't. Because your logic is faulty. Just like you cannot find fault with Islam for the actions of "Islamic" terrorists, you can't find fault with Zionism for the excesses in Palestine. The ideals aren't faulty...the execution is.

Again !!! Thats why I said "ZIONISM" and "Extremism" ...........

[Habitual Perfectionist]

Displacing a million people is spiritual gain. ?
Blatant refusal to adhere to UN policies is attaining spiritual gain.?
.......goes on.

And all this makes sense. Does it ?

No it doesn't. Because your logic is faulty. Just like you cannot find fault with Islam for the actions of "Islamic" terrorists, you can't find fault with Zionism for the excesses in Palestine. The ideals aren't faulty...the execution is.

Again !!! Thats why I said "ZIONISM" and "Extremism" ...........

I can understand all those comments for extremism. But just because you used "ZIONISM" and "EXTREMISM" together, doesn't mean they're both similar. duh!!

[DQ]

I can understand all those comments for extremism. But just because you used "ZIONISM" and "EXTREMISM" together, doesn't mean they're both similar. duh!!

Shooting of 14 yrs olds, suspecting them to be suicide bombers.



Displacing a million people in their homeland.



Oh yes they are not similar. Hard to understand which is the better of the two though.....?



And it still doesn't justify reality's stating "Zionism and spiritual gains makes sense". How ?

[Habitual Perfectionist]

Shooting of 14 yrs olds, suspecting them to be suicide bombers.

Who? Where? When?

Displacing a million people in their homeland.

Happens more often than you think it does. Do the names Narmada and Sardar Sarovar ring a bell? Would the Indian and Gujarat govts. be labelled EXTREMIST or ZIONIST in this case?

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Shooting of 14 yrs olds, suspecting them to be suicide bombers.

Who? Where? When?

Sometime back the Israeli soldiers shot and killed a 14 year old boy suspecting him to be a suicide bomber. This is not an isolated case. Several times in the past they have killed teenagers.
Last month a 11 year old boy was caught laden with several KG of explosives, but instead of blowing himself up he surrendered to police as he didnt want to die but was forced by hamas to carry the explosives. Its instances like these that make the soldiers paranoid and they suspect every one including kids as suicide bombers. This, coupled with the high stress soldiers undergo in combat and continuous vigils on borders (watch Full metal jacket) result in mental trauma and lead to killing of innocent people. But it has nothing to do with zionism.
Labelling this as zionism is foolish. Its not worse than arming kids with explosives and using them as suicide bombers which is the worse form of terrorism.

Displacing a million people in their homeland.

Happens more often than you think it does. Do the names Narmada and Sardar Sarovar ring a bell? Would the Indian and Gujarat govts. be labelled EXTREMIST or ZIONIST in this case?[/quote]



I think the comparision is not apt.

[Habitual Perfectionist]

Shooting of 14 yrs olds, suspecting them to be suicide bombers.

Who? Where? When?

Sometime back the Israeli soldiers shot and killed a 14 year old boy suspecting him to be a suicide bomber. This is not an isolated case. Several times in the past they have killed teenagers.
Last month a 11 year old boy was caught laden with several KG of explosives, but instead of blowing himself up he surrendered to police as he didnt want to die but was forced by hamas to carry the explosives. Its instances like these that make the soldiers paranoid and they suspect every one including kids as suicide bombers. This, coupled with the high stress soldiers undergo in combat and continuous vigils on borders (watch Full metal jacket) result in mental trauma and lead to killing of innocent people. But it has nothing to do with zionism.
Labelling this as zionism is foolish. Its not worse than arming kids with explosives and using them as suicide bombers which is the worse form of terrorism.

Didn't know about teenagers being killed. But as you say, this has nothing to do with Zionism.

Displacing a million people in their homeland.

Happens more often than you think it does. Do the names Narmada and Sardar Sarovar ring a bell? Would the Indian and Gujarat govts. be labelled EXTREMIST or ZIONIST in this case?

I think the comparision is not apt.

I know it isn't. Just trying to drive home the point to DQ that you cannot bunch extremism and zionism as similar things just because of a few stray co-incidences.



DQ doesn't take straight logic well...you see.

[DQ]

This, coupled with the high stress soldiers undergo in combat and continuous vigils on borders (watch Full metal jacket) result in mental trauma and lead to killing of innocent people. But it has nothing to do with zionism.

Labelling this as zionism is foolish. Its not worse than arming kids with explosives and using them as suicide bombers which is the worse form of terrorism.

Ah Stress !!!

Read on to find out what stress releif is



Iyman Al Hams was on her way to school in the chaotic Rafah refugee camp in the Gaza Strip, Wearing her school uniform and carrying her book bag, Iyman and her two classmates took a route past the Israeli command post.

Only about 400 meters from the school and relative safety, Israel Defense Forces, fearing that the 13-year old was carrying explosives in her book bag, fired warning shots in the air.



"When the soldiers fired in the air, the girl threw her bag and tried to flee,"



(Natural for a 13 - 14 year old to react.)



"She started running and the soldiers started firing hails of bullets at her. She was hit in the arm and fell on the ground, but they went on shooting," Soldiers later told the Israeli newspaper, Yediot Ahronoth, that their company commander, who was at the scene, walked up to the girl's body immediately after the shooting and "emptied his magazine" into her. Soldiers said the commander had approached the girl, who had already been shot and possibly killed, and repeatedly shot her as they pleaded with him to stop."



He was hot for quite a few days to flush out terrorists and this was a way out.



http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2004.html



So do we go by your statement Mayavi / HP that no there is no link between Zionism and Extremism.



What the occupying forces do is stress releif and what the extremists do is extremism?



HRW report



In his report, Mr. Giacomelli noted that Israeli occupation forces frequently



- carried out punitive demolitions of Palestinian homes.

- The enjoyment of fundamental human rights and freedoms by the Palestinians in the occupied territory was also severely curtailed by measures such as closures, which separate parts of the occupied territory, including East Jerusalem, from each other as well as from Israel. Such closures had been systematically imposed since 1993, Mr. Giacomelli noted.



The report also noted:

✹ The Israeli General Security Service (GSS) had used torture systematically during the interrogation of Palestinians suspected of security offences.



(Do we consider this as training grounds!!! No wonder Abu Ghraib was so systematic, if not for those whistle blower soldiers, there was a flaw in their training !!!)



✹ After the withdrawal and redeployment of the Israeli army from the major Palestinian cities in the West Bank in 1995,

all Palestinian political prisoners were transferred from the occupied territories to Israel, in violation of article 76 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.



✹ The practice of administrative detention, without charges or trail, had also continued. However, there had been a reduction

in the number of administrative detainees.

(No wonder why POTA / ATA Law and its likes have a marked resemblance and look like they have been tried and tested.)



About ,Linking - Did you read the definition of Zionism in the first post. Now to continue obtaining all that and "SPIRITUAL GAINS" the above acts need to be committed.



Can you clarify how is it foolish not to link the two, and if so what do we term all the above ?



Still fail to comprehend which is the greater of the two? Extremism or Zionism

[Habitual Perfectionist]

To quote the pompous but effective Winston Churchill, "To us the victors belong the spoils". All these acts of barbarism have been happening ever since the first war. I'm not trying to defend them. What I'm trying to say is that these acts are not the result of the objectives of Zionism but the fraility of human character - a show of force.



Haven't other regimes also gone hammer and tongs at their adversaries? The Iron Curtain during the cold war, the dictators of Central America & Africa, your own beloved Saddam Hussein (remember the mass displacement of Kurds after the 91 gulf war?). Its unfair to link acts of barbarism to only the Israeli and American forces.



I hope I don't have to reiterate my point again.



P.S. : Talking of Abu Ghraib, do you have any idea what Abu Ghraib was before the war?

[DQ]

To quote the pompous but effective Winston Churchill, "To us the victors belong the spoils". All these acts of barbarism have been happening ever since the first war. I'm not trying to defend them. What I'm trying to say is that these acts are not the result of the objectives of Zionism but the fraility of human character - a show of force.

Haven't other regimes also gone hammer and tongs at their adversaries? The Iron Curtain during the cold war, the dictators of Central America & Africa, your own beloved Saddam Hussein (remember the mass displacement of Kurds after the 91 gulf war?). Its unfair to link acts of barbarism to only the Israeli and American forces.

Its just how you word it, the fraility of human character can be exposed during TIMES.
What are TIMES, nothing but obtaining of "Objectives".
E.G. Bought a scooter "Happy times"
Lost a beloved "Sad times".

If the objective is to trouble 4 million people, if the objective is to kill and plunder without reason outside norm ? What times are you talking about?

Include the killing of Marshland Arabs.

What do you exactly mean when you say your own Saddam Hussein ?
Its a pity the Paki thread is gone.

Acts of barbarism need to be condemend what ever the case maybe.

And how is it unfair my friend, wether it be the Taliban of Afghanistan, the ruling Saud family, General Pinochet, Narendra Modi, GWB and allies aggressors and all acts of aggression need to be condemed.

All these have blood on their hands and have if not equal committed greater acts(of barbarism) then each other.

I hope I don't have to reiterate my point again.

P.S. : Talking of Abu Ghraib, do you have any idea what Abu Ghraib was before the war?

I hope you had read the :Concentration camps in the 21st century thread" anyway, truly I would not want to continue this argument with yourself anymore.



You consider that I have absurd logic and your posts make no sense to me.



A few discussions with you, I have noticed that you constantly try to frame people as fundamentalist etc."your own saddam"



Which unfortunately is the state of the world.



Acts of agression are carried out and people find it that they make sense and there is some logic in it (such as "Zionism and spiritual gains makes sense", " Its unfair to link acts of barbarism to only the Israeli and American forces.").



And when these acts are voiced against and condemned people who do so are brandished fanatics and fundamentalists, which is not so very true.



Woh qatl bhi karte hai to charcha nahin hoti.
Hum aah bhi bharte hai to ho jate hai badnaam.



If you have the misconception that I have been discussing this on a relgious bias you are wrong. <EOD with HP>

[Mayavi Morpheus]

So do we go by your statement Mayavi / HP that no there is no link between Zionism and Extremism.

What the occupying forces do is stress releif and what the extremists do is extremism?

Can you clarify how is it foolish not to link the two, and if so what do we term all the above ?

Still fail to comprehend which is the greater of the two? Extremism or Zionism

What does the killing have to do with the Zionism or Islamic fundamentalism? (although I agree that the conflict has to do a lot with both). So if the killer is a Jew it automatically means that Jews are extremists?

Anyway, I already read that and I have read worse. Not just read, I have seen worse tapes. I have seen Daniel pearl beaing beheaded... his neck being cut effortlessly and the blood spilling like a fountain and the beheader didnt even wink. I hope you remember that Daniel pearl is a Jew and the executers were Muslims. You make the connection. afterall, thats what you believe right?

[DQ]

So do we go by your statement Mayavi / HP that no there is no link between Zionism and Extremism.

What the occupying forces do is stress releif and what the extremists do is extremism?

Can you clarify how is it foolish not to link the two, and if so what do we term all the above ?

Still fail to comprehend which is the greater of the two? Extremism or Zionism

What does the killing have to do with the Zionism or Islamic fundamentalism? (although I agree that the conflict has to do a lot with both). So if the killer is a Jew it automatically means that Jews are extremists?
Anyway, I already read that and I have read worse. Not just read, I have seen worse tapes. I have seen Daniel pearl beaing beheaded... his neck being cut effortlessly and the blood spilling like a fountain and the beheader didnt even wink. I hope you remember that Daniel pearl is a Jew and the executers were Muslims. You make the connection. afterall, thats what you believe right?

To quote the pompous but effective Winston Churchill, "To us the victors belong the spoils". All these acts of barbarism have been happening ever since the first war. I'm not trying to defend them. What I'm trying to say is that these acts are not the result of the objectives of Zionism but the fraility of human character - a show of force.

Haven't other regimes also gone hammer and tongs at their adversaries? The Iron Curtain during the cold war, the dictators of Central America & Africa, your own beloved Saddam Hussein (remember the mass displacement of Kurds after the 91 gulf war?). Its unfair to link acts of barbarism to only the Israeli and American forces.

Its just how you word it, the fraility of human character can be exposed during TIMES.
What are TIMES, nothing but obtaining of "Objectives".
E.G. Bought a scooter "Happy times"
Lost a beloved "Sad times".

If the objective is to trouble 4 million people, if the objective is to kill and plunder without reason outside norm ? What times are you talking about?

Include the killing of Marshland Arabs.

What do you exactly mean when you say your own Saddam Hussein ?
Its a pity the Paki thread is gone.

Acts of barbarism need to be condemend what ever the case maybe.

And how is it unfair my friend, wether it be the Taliban of Afghanistan, the ruling Saud family, General Pinochet, Narendra Modi, GWB and allies aggressors and all acts of aggression need to be condemed.

All these have blood on their hands and have if not equal committed greater acts(of barbarism) then each other.

I hope I don't have to reiterate my point again.

P.S. : Talking of Abu Ghraib, do you have any idea what Abu Ghraib was before the war?

I hope you had read the :Concentration camps in the 21st century thread" anyway, truly I would not want to continue this argument with yourself anymore.

You consider that I have absurd logic and your posts make no sense to me.

A few discussions with you, I have noticed that you constantly try to frame people as fundamentalist etc."your own saddam"

Which unfortunately is the state of the world.

Acts of agression are carried out and people find it that they make sense and there is some logic in it (such as "Zionism and spiritual gains makes sense", " Its unfair to link acts of barbarism to only the Israeli and American forces.").

And when these acts are voiced against and condemned people who do so are brandished fanatics and fundamentalists, which is not so very true.

Woh qatl bhi karte hai to charcha nahin hoti.
Hum aah bhi bharte hai to ho jate hai badnaam.

If you have the misconception that I have been discussing this on a relgious bias you are wrong. <EOD with Mayavi>

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Although I would like to shoot hole in your "

Acts of barbarism need to be condemend what ever the case maybe." I am a bit busy now. So, EOD is fine with me.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

About ,Linking - Did you read the definition of Zionism in the first post. Now to continue obtaining all that and "SPIRITUAL GAINS" the above acts need to be committed.

I still dont get it DQ. So the Jewish soldier killed the girl for Spiritual gains? If true, hows this concept different from Jihad?

Acts of barbarism need to be condemend what ever the case maybe.

And when these acts are voiced against and condemned people who do so are brandished fanatics and fundamentalists, which is not so very true.

See, you condemn the attrocities of one set of people and are trying to justify another set by claiming that they are just opposing the tyranny.

There is something in us that makes us selectively ignore certain crimes while condemn other crimes. I have observed this trait in several people, myself included; we position ourself not at the center, but to the left or right of an issue which makes the acts of one group look less barbaric than the other.

[DQ]

I'd hate to reply as I know this discussion is going no....

I still dont get it DQ. So the Jewish soldier killed the girl for Spiritual gains? If true, hows this concept different from Jihad?

Exactly what i want to find out my friend?
Zionism a movement for a seperate statehood to obtain spiritual gains correct?
So do we perceive that what you mean by spiritual gains is making people live a refugees in their own lands. Killing people ?

See, you condemn the attrocities of one set of people and are trying to justify another set by claiming that they are just opposing the tyranny.
There is something in us that makes us selectively ignore certain crimes while condemn other crimes. I have observed this trait in several people, myself included; we position ourself not at the center, but to the left or right of an issue which makes the acts of one group look less barbaric than the other.

True so true. I re quote myself,



"Taliban of Afghanistan, the ruling Saud family, General Pinochet, Narendra Modi, GWB and allies aggressors and all acts of aggression need to be condemed."



Am I just targetting one set of people when I condemn the above. In my life time I have heard about the above spill innocent blood., and are worthy of condemnation.



I think in this discussion it proves that Zionism and Extremism are the greatest threat to humanity.



If their definition of spiritual gain is spilling innocent blood.

If their definition of running the world is "their so called sunnah"

If their definition is to undo/rewrite history, by demolishing every thing and bringing the country back to the so called "Ram Rajya"(Rolling the country back to 3000 BC).



I have stated my stance in this discussion. its not clear what your stance is ?



"Zionism and Extremism are the greatest threat to humanity" If let to spread they will bring the world dangerously close to annhilation.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Individual perceptions DQ, yours differ from mine. You see Zionism as a big threat, I dont. Zionism may be a threat, if at all, to only palestines and is restricted to mid-east only. The resultant conflict is a threat to the world but it would be unfair to blame jews alone for that. I blame both muslims and jews equally for the conflict.



I only see leftism and religious fanaticism as a threat to the world.