caste 101

[mark]

I've searched around a bit on the internet, i'll be getting a book over the weekend on it cos the internet stuff is mostly bullshit propaganda by the various interested parties involved.



Could someone explain the caste system to me? not too much historical content is needed, just a snapshot of the current situation for starters.



1 quick question also: how open is it? is it acceptable to inquire about a persons caste (not me, but for an Indian to ask), does it appear on application forms, etc?



thanks guys. most guidebooks advise firengs to avoid discussion on "Indian issues" like sati, caste, arranged marrages, Kashmir, Hindi as national language (if in TN), etc. However it's not like i want to get involved in deep debate, i just what to know what you guys think of it.

[DQ]

Caste in india is a accepted topic. May sound a slur in any other part of the world. Ask a Phirang. "What is your Caste....." He'll go bonkers.



Just going a bit out of topic though, just predicting where the discussion will go (if a serious discussion takes place) .



What is the greatest injustice on Humanity today ?



Geographical boundaries are the greatest injustice to humanity today.



God probably created us different, to explore each other, expolre and admire nature etc. What we did was group ourselves by color of skin, trait, trade etc and created boundaries.



We try to hold firm on these boundaries, and to ever try to prove our own race supreme. Ah,,,, I know this is going too much. Lets wait for responses to talk at what level this discussion goes.

[Sharjeel]

Castes, boundaries and all other divisions are based on some differences, (or similarities) between people. These differences may be cultural, religious, morality based or monetary.



Are Indians different from the Chinese? Yes.

Are Indians different from the Pakis? Not so much



And so on...sometimes they work, and sometimes they do not.

[Sharjeel]

Dint pay attn to the main question...



here are some URLs:



http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1812/18120840.htm



http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=3459&page=3



http://www.boloji.com/hinduism/047.htm



To avoid redundancy, I'll stop dolin out more URLs.



I always learn more and more when people ask questions on FH...

[labelle]

The discussion on the caste system has been going on over ages. we feel that India has progressed a lot but we are seeing this progression in terms of GDPs and per capita income and the number of MNC's who are investing a lot of money but if we look at the ground reality then the picture is completely different the caste system still prevails specially in the interiors of uttar pradesh and haryana there are very few incidents which get reported but who knows the number of cases that go unreported. i think that the change has to come from within when ppl would feel that the person infront of him is also a human being with the same flesh and blood then the problem would diminish. one has to rise above being a brahmin, a vaishya, a kshatriya or a shudra. i know it is a difficult to ask at this stage as we have the family values in our genes and even though we are convent educated and work in big It firms but we do hesitate sometimes. a famous line from shakespeare can be stated at last that " if you bring the person from the north( who are supposed to be white ) and bring a person from Africa ( who are supposed to be dark skinned) if you cut the veins then the colour of the blood would be same " this is what we should think or at make an effort.

[vakibs]

1) They dont ask for caste on most of the official application forms. If they ask, it is usually for survey



2) It is part of the social dialogue to enquire about a person's caste. (I KNOW.. IT SUCKX) But it is common. For example, you join an engineering college, and the first question your seniors ask you - whats your brand (whats ur caste) UGLY !



3) My opinion is people think about caste and other grouping mechanisms only when they are insecure. Insecurity (about even simple things) is a disease that is very much there in India. So we can expect the caste politics to rule the roost for quite a few years to go.

[CtrlAltDel]

Could someone explain the caste system to me? not too much historical content is needed, just a snapshot of the current situation for starters.

i think a quick recap of the caste history is needed. in vedic times, caste system began as a system of classifying people according to the work they do. a priest was a brahmin, a soldier a kshatriya and so on. this was not hereditory, ie for example, if a priest's son decides to become a grocer, he automatically became a vysya.

over a few centuries, caste crystalized into a sort of racist classification that became hereditory as it is now. this change was largely initiated by the powerful castes to maintain their status and influence. this has led to the current situation as we see it today.

after the independence of India, the caste system was made illegal and the lower castes were given opportunity to get ahead in life thru affirmative action in govt. employment and education. thsi was suppossed to be a temporary measure that ought to have been phased out over time, but now no political party wud dare raise this point since the 'reservation' lobby is a huge 'vote-bank'.

now a days the caste system influences daily life and activities largely in the rural areas where the hold of 'tradition' is strong. in the urban areas, it is present in a subtle way like in marriages among same caste etc, tho overt discrimination like untouchability has disappeared.

in some rural areas the hold of caste is very strong and any 'violation' of the caste code invites a violent backlash, which of corz is illegal.

how open is it? is it acceptable to inquire about a persons caste

caste is an open issue here but its not considered politically correct to enquire a person's caste even though sometimes the caste can be correctly guessed from the person's name. but now and then we do come across some ppl who directly ask the caste after an introduction, but usually they arent much in number

does it appear on application forms, etc?

it appears in govt or college/university application forms where there is a special consideration for certain lower castes. in this case the beneficiaries have to submit a 'caste certificate' issued by the govt.

[mark]

thanks everybody, great responses.



2 more Q's

I know you said the caste system is abolished CAD, but it seems to still hold an important place in politics and everyday life.

Who has most to gain by retaining the system?

Who has most to gain by abolishing it completely?

[wisecrack]

Hmm..Hey Mark,

Brief Intro about Caste System in India:

In Ancient India,the whole Indian society was divided into 4 castes based on their occupation.

The Brahmins ,being the priests in temples and the most learned ones , were regarded as the most superior of all the castes.*Mebbe thats coz they were more informed and well-versed with the sacred texts and hence considered closer to God**(This is jus my guess..!!)

The Kshatriyas are the Warrior Kings. They ruled the land,maintained their kingdoms,fought wars.They learnt all their arts(reading,writing,archery etd) from the Gurus,and hence believed to be the next best to the Brahmins.

The Vysyas are the merchants who were active in trade,involved in different kinds of businesses.

The Sudras are the Farmers/artisans (In my opinion,India's common man..The Farmer..and therefore one of the most important)

This is the basic division of castes in India.

As for asking about Caste in Appl forms.No..as far as i knw this doesnt exist.But then Castesim is spread everywhere. The Scheduled Castes and Tribes are given reservations in jobs,education,financial support etc. This doesnt go down too well with some of the Upper Caste ppl who hafta struggle to get a job.*and hence the fighting in the thread "Brahmins better....blah blah..." ** Sad that these differences are still present in India today,with people fighting to prove who's better!

Lucky You Mark!

[mark]

Right, this is probably going to sound like an extremely stupid question to you, as you all grew up here, but the people who live in tents at the side of the road, you know the ones I'm on about, near the large pools of stagnant water and cows and pigs? Are those people of totally mixed caste, i.e will you find Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vysyas and Sudras all living in these sort of conditions?

[labelle]

mark to be frank the caste system is for the middle class people the working class who takes the burden to maintain and make the rules for the society. as far as the people in huts or the ones who stay on the road side they are simply the vote banks for the pot bellied politicians. these politicians use them as a vote bank. they lure them on the lines of caste and more often for a bottle of country made liquor. yes there exsists the mix of all castes of people in this strata of the society. we can conclude that in this mordern world India is divided into two main castes



THE RICH and





The POOR .





what do you have to say? the more you learn about all these the murkier it would become

[Sharjeel]

Are those people of totally mixed caste, i.e will you find Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vysyas and Sudras all living in these sort of conditions?

The answer is not so obvious. The casete boundaries have dimnished a lot in the past decade. In the past you could generally immediately identify the caste of a person by his manners/choice/personality, but not anymore.



1. The caste system has made it so that you will not find a Brahmin (or some high caste person)who is poor (this is a loose generalisation). Because of this, you will find mostly lower caste people (no disrespect) in chawls and similar places.



2. The people who you are talking about may be pardhis, or other tribals/villagers, who are some of the most filthy people (disrespect intended) living on the planet. They intentionaly live like that, dunno why. They are abonimably dirty and filthy, and no matter what the Govt. does to help them and relocate them, they always come back to their old habits and places. Stop worrying about them and avoid them. Some people cannot be helped.

[Jaszalcatraz]

Who would've thought that an Irishman would hep me learn more about my culture

[mark]

2. The people who you are talking about may be pardhis, or other tribals/villagers, who are some of the most filthy people (disrespect intended) living on the planet. They intentionaly live like that, dunno why. They are abonimably dirty and filthy, and no matter what the Govt. does to help them and relocate them, they always come back to their old habits and places. Stop worrying about them and avoid them. Some people cannot be helped.

This is exactly the way the british felt about the inhabitants of both of our countries 150 years ago.

[Jaszalcatraz]

This is exactly the way the british felt about the inhabitants of both of our countries 150 years ago.

Makes for a nice debate........The First Indo-Irish Hate-Brits Debate

Mark.....tell us why you think the Irish hate them more than the Indians.

Rest.......tell mark why you think the Indians hate him more than the Irish.

[Jaszalcatraz]

Rest.......tell mark why you think the Indians hate him more than the Irish.

My bad.........hate the Brits

[wisecrack]

I dont really hate the British now.Yes.They were cruel.They were the very reason our country had to struggle for decades. But then I just wonder what it would've been like if those guys never left India.My guess is that we would've a more neater and a cleaner India. Argh !Its jus the cash-hungry politicians of this country that makes me say this!

Well,getting back to seriously hating the British

( )

I dont like the British for:

1.Their brutality.I thought the scenes in the movie 'Kaala Paani' were exaggerated.But stuff like Indians having to lick shoes of Britishers did happen for real.



2. Their "We are Supreme" Ego which is now reflected among the Americans.



I can go on n on... I hate em for what they were.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Some nitpicks:

after the independence of India, the caste system was made illegal and the lower castes were given opportunity to get ahead in life thru affirmative action in govt. employment and education.

Affirmative action is different from Reservation system. In india we have a reservation system and a percentage of seats and jobs are 'reserved'. US follows affirmative action where in they award some points to the backward people so that they can compete with the rest.

When Dr.Ambedkar wrote the constitution, he introduced the provision for the backward castes and it was to end after 20 years after Indian got independance. Then it was extended to another 30 years, till 1997 and then for another 20 years. I dont see it ending. The reservations now account for 51 % of college seats nation wide and 70% in TN.

The Sudras are the Farmers/artisans (In my opinion,India's common man..The Farmer..and therefore one of the most important)

Farmers are not sudras. Sudras or untouchable or harijans as gandhi called them are the communities who clean up the soceities mess. They are the scavengers and the people who are/were in leather industry.

My telugu teacher in school gave a nice explanation about untouchability. She said that in the olden ages, when manu divided the society into castes the scavengers and others were classified as shudras. Now these people work in unhygenic conditions, as they have to work with human waste and animal skins. So, for the greater good of society the shudras moved away from the villages and started living on the outskirts. With the passing of time the society started treating them as untouchables. I dont know how much it is true, but this theory certainly holds water.



Although I donot support the caste system the way it is practiced today or its origins as being discussed in the other thread, I think it is a brilliant idea. Caste system ensured that the traditional working skills are not lost over generations and everyones welfare is ensured. A carpenter father passes his skills to his carpenter son and it continues for generations and this suits the Indian psyche just fine or may be its the other way around. While the plus side is that your food and job is gauranteed, the minus is that it curbs individual freedom. A carpenters son is not allowed to dream of being anything but a carpenter.

[PROUD_DALIT]

MARK,

i WOULD LIKE START BY SAYING THAT THE ONLY WAY IT SEEMS YOU BELIEVE YOU CAN FIT YOURSEELF INTO THIS SOCITEY IS BY RIDICULING IN YOU R OWN CULTURE/SOCIETY THIS IS THE STRATEGY USED BY THE WEAK ,I AM SAYING THIS ON THE BASIS OF TH EPOST YOU MADE IN TH EBRAHMINS NOT BETTER DALITS BETTER THREAD.

COMING ON TO THE TOPIC OF CASTESIM IN INDIA,IT WAS STARTED BY A GFROUP OF PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELES BRAHMINS,THEY PLACE THEMSELVES ON TOP OF THE HINDU PYRAMID.THEY CONTROL THE WHOLE OTHER 99% HINDUS AND FOR OTHER HINDUS TO BE HINDUS WE HAVE TO BELIEVE THEY ARE SUPERIOR TO US AND TREAT EVEN A RAPIST BRAHMIN PRIEST AS OUR FATHER,THIS IS IN THE RELIGIOUS BOOK BHAGVAD GITA,IT ALSO SAYS THAT ALL THE OTHER CASTES WERE CRATED TO SERVE TRHE BRAHMIN CASTS AND THEY DID SO AND ARE STILL DOING EVER SINCE THEY CAME INTO THE CLUTCHE SOF BRAHMINS.

THE BHAGWADGITA ALSO GOES ONTO SAY THAT BRAHMINS WERE BORN FROOM THE HEAD OF THE GOD AND WE SUDRAS THE SO CALLED LOWER CASTE WERE BORN FROM THE FEET OF THE GOD SYMBOLIZING THE SUPERIOROTY OF BRAHMINS.WE HAVE TO BELIEVE THIS TO BE A HINDU EVEN THEN WE ARE OF LOW CASTE ,THEY WONT EAT IN THE SAME PLATES AS WE EAT OTHERIWSE THEIR DHARMA SPOILT.THEIR DRARMA (RELIGION) ALSO SPOILT WHEN THEY CROSS THE OCEANS TO GO OVER TO OTHER PLACES THEY ARE GOING TO AMERICA AND OTHER COUNTIRES AND NOT CONSIDERING THIS.THEY ARE ALSO OF THE ILLUSION THEY ARE GERMANS AND ADMIRE HITLER NOW MARK HAVE YOU SEEN ANY GERMAN INDIAN BRAHMIN PRIEST.THIS IS A BRIEF PERSPECTIVE OF CASTEISM BRAHMISNISM FROM A PERSON WHO I S THE PRIME TARGET OF CASTEISM.THE BRAHMINS ON THIS BOARDS WILL USE THE PROFESSION TO JUSTIFY CASTEIMS,NOE NO MORE PEOPLE ARE RESTRICKETD TO ONE PROFESION OR SKILL SO WHY USE THE CASTEIMS NOW JUST TO CONTROL THE OTHER POPLE BY USING RELIGIONS TO ASSERT AUTHORITY OVER THEMIF YOU WANT THE REAL PCITURE GOVER TO THE FOLLWOING LINK TO OPEN YOU REYES AND SEE THE TRUTH YOURSELF.AND READ EVERYONE OF THEM EVERYOBE OF THEM IS A MUST FOR ALL THE SC/STS DALITS BCS AND EYEOPENER FOR FOREIGNERS LIEK YOU.

CASTEISM
http://dalitstan.org/journal/brahman/br ... h0124.html

http://dalitstan.org/journal/brahman/br ... h0114.html

BRAHMINISM(HEGEMONY OF BRAHMINS)
http://dalitstan.org/journal/brahman/br ... brstn.html
http://dalitstan.org/journal/brahman/br ... _hate.html





Advice : Oh Dasu ! Trust the Brahmin at thy own risk. Cheating a Dasoo is no crime in Ved Dharma. Betraying a Dasoo is no sin to a Brahmin. A drunken drug-addict, lying Brahmin is a thousand-fold better in the eyes of Vishnu than a truthful, pious, honest Sudra. If you still doubt this advice, go and read the Vedic law-book expounded by Manu !

[akhilis2cool]

THE BHAGWADGITA ALSO GOES ONTO SAY THAT BRAHMINS WERE BORN FROOM THE HEAD OF THE GOD AND WE SUDRAS THE SO CALLED LOWER CASTE WERE BORN FROM THE FEET OF THE GOD SYMBOLIZING THE SUPERIOROTY OF BRAHMINS.

What makes u think that the head is more important than the feet?

When u worship a god which of his body do u touch? head or feet?

When u wnat ur parents' blessings which part of there body do u touch to get there blessings?

All the parts in the human body are there to serve some purpose. they are equally important. But u feel otherwise.

[lizard king]

PLato s republic is no different Manu s Manusmirithi, both of which are books on which the 2 great civilizations of the ancient world, and to that matter the modern world revolves on(philisophically).



this system of catses has been throughout, but from what i think, the subsequent invasions into india by the bactrians and the greeks got in their ccultural aspects into modern indian society and there by great divide among the castes in modern india. there are still many many politicians in india who boast of their greek ancestory.

[lizard king]

And seriously, if its not castes or religion or race... people will always come up with new thngs to hate each other...., like i said before, sunsigns have a very very good future in the world of hatered. I am also predicting division of mankind in terms of cconsumer products... like u know......buyers of nike will hate Addidas and cocke drinkers will hate pepsi deinkers and so forth. I al so gladly waiting to see that day.

[mark]

[b]MARK,

i WOULD LIKE START BY SAYING THAT THE ONLY WAY IT SEEMS YOU BELIEVE YOU CAN FIT YOURSEELF INTO THIS SOCITEY IS BY RIDICULING IN YOU R OWN CULTURE/SOCIETY THIS IS THE STRATEGY USED BY THE WEAK ,I AM SAYING THIS ON THE BASIS OF TH EPOST YOU MADE IN TH EBRAHMINS NOT BETTER DALITS BETTER THREAD.

I'm not ridiculing my own culture you f%ckwit, i'm not british.



The rest of your post is exactly the sort of hate-inspired bullshit i was trying to avoid, and your links are the sort of propaganda that make it hard to find useful information on this online.



ALSO CAPSLOCK'S NOT COOL.

[lizard king]

I dont really hate the British now.Yes.They were cruel.They were the very reason our country had to struggle for decades. But then I just wonder what it would've been like if those guys never left India.My guess is that we would've a more neater and a cleaner India.

Cleaner? who are u kidding man?

u asking us to trust a pommy with cleanliness, if so, u got to be kidding. anyway, i have never been to london, but ask some one who has been there, u ll get an account of how dirty it could be. And they say dharavi is a slum.

[wisecrack]

Yeah ..Definetely.I mean education is something which most of the Indians lack. The only good thing those guys did was to encourage education. People would definetely not be spitting paan around and throwing empty cig packs,bottles and gutka packets. It would be nice if some sort of fine is imposed on doing such things.



Hey LK..i was jus wondering how it wud've been if they didnt leave the country. Not necessary that I have to be right! i m no P_d



@Mark

For most Indians, Irish=British,however absurdly wrong the equation mebbe!