New Delhi Bombings

[DQ]

Wah Wah....both these posts by Akshay and MM show that if they had the resources that likes of Osama have they would be no better or even worse.



Akshay - MMs _ nation theory wham bam nuke and bomb......

[Akshay]

Wah Wah....both these posts by Akshay and MM show that if they had the resources that likes of Osama have they would be no better or even worse.

Akshay - MMs _ nation theory wham bam nuke and bomb......

You have completely misjudjed our ability to comprehend the nuke wham bam results. To be very explicit, I am not advocating nukes or bombs or anything like that, I am sure neither is MM. I am highlighting the naivete of assumptions about root causes presented everytime by the morally high-grounded righteous intellects to counter the fury against terrorism.



In the treatment I described, but not comprehensively elaborated by any means, I mention the phases for each role: monitoring, soft control, and strict actions.



By giving Bush as an example I am bringing out the benefits of actions, and once again to be very explicit, not advocating exactly same actions. There are occassions, after thousands of terrorism deaths and displacements certainly being one of those, when governments need to act and make an example, leaving aside the to-the-death never ending analysis for moral certitude and moral high-ground. If we do not do so then every attack encourages new uncalled and unjustifiable attacks.



I am no cold-blooded lunatic bent on world destruction when I ask for action. All I am suggesting is to show some spine through action and clean the cancer within the borders instead of mollycoddling the suspects within and without.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Wah Wah....both these posts by Akshay and MM show that if they had the resources that likes of Osama have they would be no better or even worse.

Akshay - MMs _ nation theory wham bam nuke and bomb......

Which part of "I DO NOT PROPOSE WAR" did you not understand? I specifically bolded that part so that you can read easily.

If we do not do so then every attack encourages new uncalled and unjustifiable attacks.

Exacytly, we think that we are showing restraint but the terrorrists percieve it as weakness. But then as long as we have terrorrist sympathisers (yeah right, solve palestine problem to stop some lunatic mullah from bombing india) we would be a weak nation... easy target.

[DQ]

Benefits of action is a self perceived accomplishment.



The so called spine showing hell bent obstinancy will only lead to destruction. See Afghanistan - Iraq. If you think stern action breaking of asses has resulted in eliminating extremism you are living in a cocoon peeping the world through a self spun web.



Not only is the suggestion obscure, it is gross. A man made disastour, deaths of a 100,000 people. Millions displaced. Just for a spine thrilling chilling experience.



Regarding PAK and its nefrasious activities, a region contained and maintained by the same forces responsible for spread of extremism in the middle east.



If geninune peace returns to the middle east, the extremist ideology will be defeated which in turn will automatically break the spine of the ideology in other parts of the world including India.



If we sit in our own"baja walla" box make a small hole and peep through it, one day we will end up annihilating ourselves.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

If geninune peace returns to the middle east, the extremist ideology will be defeated which in turn will automatically break the spine of the ideology in other parts of the world including India.

So you suggest that we just keep quiet and let people die at the hands of terrorrists and just hope that palestine is solved to the satisfaction of the muslim world? And after that what...chehenya, Iraq, kashmir and Hyderabad...?

[CtrlAltDel]

i agree with certain points raised both by DQ and MM-Akshay.



as DQ said, what is now called 'Islamic Terrorism' undeniably has its roots in two major incidents: (1) when western powers forcibly carved out Israel in the middle of an Arab dominated country (2) when the then USSR invaded Aghanistan and US decided to arm Jihadis in a proxy-war under the slogan that "Islam is in Danger"



another thing is that most of the foot soldiers and cannon fodder for the jihadis come from the poor classes since they are easy picking for the rich bosses n mullahs controlling the groups (u never hear of a mullah or jihadi leader blowing himself up, its always an unkown/insignificant person).



right now jihad is a tool used by countries like pakistan and saudi arabia to further their own causes and/or spread their ideology. solution of palestine issue would not solve this problem coz the jihadis now infest places unconnected with the controversy (like India, for example).



Pakistan and its Jihadis in Kashmir wud never give up their struggle until kashmir merges with pakistan and we have to fight them, either directly or via some proxy war against pakistan. war has its own disadvatages for us, so the proxy war is the best option...give them enuf pin pricks so that they are preoccupied handling it without having to destabilize their current regime. if it means RAW igniting shia-sunni conflict in pakistan, let it happen. let the terrorists slaughter each other, its good for us.



but to expect pakistan to open up trade with india and getting into a sort of dependent position is wishful thinking. not gonna happen.



let pakistan exist. its a reality now. but keep it preoccupied with its own problems.



give our forces enuf support to eliminate the jihadis wherever they are.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

as DQ said, what is now called 'Islamic Terrorism' undeniably has its roots in two major incidents: (1) when western powers forcibly carved out Israel in the middle of an Arab dominated country (2) when the then USSR invaded Aghanistan and US decided to arm Jihadis in a proxy-war under the slogan that "Islam is in Danger"

You know, India has the worlds second largest Islamic population and till date there wasn't one suicide bombing! The same western powers which forcibly carved Israel out of Palestine, also carve pakistan out of India. The kind of Terrorrism one sees in palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq is a direct consequence of what you have stated, but terrorrism of the kind we see in London, New York, India, Bali, Spain, Kenya and countless other countries is not a consequence of these conflicts.

[CtrlAltDel]

as DQ said, what is now called 'Islamic Terrorism' undeniably has its roots in two major incidents: (1) when western powers forcibly carved out Israel in the middle of an Arab dominated country (2) when the then USSR invaded Aghanistan and US decided to arm Jihadis in a proxy-war under the slogan that "Islam is in Danger"

You know, India has the worlds second largest Islamic population and till date there wasn't one suicide bombing! The same western powers which forcibly carved Israel out of Palestine, also carve pakistan out of India. The kind of Terrorrism one sees in palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq is a direct consequence of what you have stated, but terrorrism of the kind we see in London, New York, India, Bali, Spain, Kenya and countless other countries is not a consequence of these conflicts.

yes...thats why i also said:

right now jihad is a tool used by countries like pakistan and saudi arabia to further their own causes and/or spread their ideology.

[DQ]

if it means RAW igniting shia-sunni conflict in pakistan, let it happen. let the terrorists slaughter each other, its good for us.

I tend to agree on most of your major points, but its statements like these that polarise people.



Why this indifference ?



1. Shia - Sunni conflict, do you think it will let India rest in Peace



2. Shia - Sunni conflict (Shia - Sunni two major branches in Islam) you proceed the statement with let the terrorists slaughter each other. A menial and a rot thought.



3. Shia - Sunni conflict, one mistake the west did by promoting Wahabissm. Shia - Sunni conflict if fanned will ensure the Parts of Europe and 100% Asia dissemiate.



A conflict on the other hand if fanned in India will ensure that India rolls back a 100 years.



Grow up guys, the crystallized maze is going to take you no where.



Idolisation of Bush has led to already untold misery, rolling back is getting even more painful. How, check the price of petrol, simple grassroot level.



This is threatning to start a global recession. So much for freedom....

[Arrabiato HP]

where did da topic start and where is it heading

and

Exactly, where is this heading to.

It started with terrorist bombings and the discussion was on the intelligence agency-terrorism nexus when you interjected.

If secratarian violence is attributed to RAW,

Was RAW active in Afghanistan
Is it Active from Syria to Lebanon to Yemen to IRAQ. The answer is NO.

The methods of different agencies might differ. For example, the CIA & the now defunct KGB have a history of political destabilisation through disinformation. ISI works in tandem with terrorist groups. RAW's modus operandi in Kashmir has been more of a guerilla kind of skirmish. They perpetrate small clashes which are manipulated into escalation on a much bigger scale. Many of the Shia-Sunni clashes in pakistan can be attributed to RAW.

First of all, the word Kashmir in the post was there by mistake. I meant Pakistan.

Secondly, I said "many of the clashes" and not all. I didn't mean in even the remotest way that RAW is the sole entity responsible for the sectarian clashes in Pakistan. What that means is, that RAW is using the sectarian divide in its favour to create destabilisation in Pakistan.

RAW is more of intelligence gathering and well meaning guys like your selves ridicule India by attributing nefracious activities to RAW.

As I've mentioned previously, every intelligence agency does indulge in destabilisation of the enemy along with the intelligence gathering function. We can discuss this on another thread if you wish to.

And the so called RVs in their eagerness to tread the line of bigoted propoganda would always want to create nuisance.

Where is the discussion leading to now???

Well waht all of us tend to ignore here is extremism and its spread. The scourge of extremism is real and there is no quick fix solution to it, like the so called RVs would want to beleive, bombing nations, nuke warfare is not going to eliminate it. (Shows that extremism exists in one form or another every where)

I guess MM and Akshay have answered this quite effectively, so no need for me to rant unnecessarily.

Among the factors that can help eliminate extremism

1. A Democratic United Palestinian / Israeli state.(lol it can never happen,)
Now before you jump hubba bubba let me give you an insight of the palestinian / Israeli conflict.

Source - http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html

Also read THE COVENANT OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, before blabbing.

"Balfour Declaration" issued by the British Government in 1917, expressing support for "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people (there are no records which show the percentage of Arab and Jewish poulations then)"
Why then was this expression of support. If true democracy had to spread why was this nation not given soverign right?.

anyway

During the years of the Palestine Mandate, from 1922 to 1947, large-scale Jewish immigration from abroad, mainly from Eastern Europe took place, the numbers swelling in the 1930s with the notorious Nazi persecution of Jewish populations. (So according to todays defination of certain communities being "Walled Off" the need then was fr this displaced people to integrate into country of Migration.)

What Happened?

After looking at various alternatives, the UN proposed the partitioning of Palestine into two independent States, one Palestinian Arab and the other Jewish, with Jerusalem internationalized (Resolution 181 (II) of 1947). One of the two States envisaged in the partition plan proclaimed its independence as Israel and in the 1948 war expanded to occupy 77 per cent of the territory of Palestine. Israel also occupied the larger part of Jerusalem. Over half the indigenous Palestinian population fled or were expelled. Jordan and Egypt occupied the other parts of the territory assigned by the partition resolution to the Palestinian Arab State which did not come into being.

In the 1967 war, Israel occupied the remaining territory of Palestine, until then under Jordanian and Egyptian control (the West Bank and Gaza Strip). This included the remaining part of Jerusalem, which was subsequently annexed by Israel. The war brought about a second exodus of Palestinians, estimated at half a million. Security Council resolution 242 (1967) of 22 November 1967 called on Israel to withdraw from territories it had occupied in the 1967 conflict.

The UN and the Mandatory nations should undo this and help in establishing a single democratic nation.


2. Reduction of global meddling in middle eastern affairs.
For example stopping the support to the Wahabbi Royal kingdom. A school of thought (helped and created and financed by US) that has annhilated most of the Muslim World and now has spread and sits poised to become the sole cause of destruction of millions. through its nefracious activities, one of its sub wing being Al Qaeda.

3. A Democratic Saudi Arabia free of US intervention, this will give rise to formation of liberated Arab common man, whose freedom from staunch despots automatically will give rise to true democracy and a peaceful Globe.

Point taken. And as a spinoff of your own views on how to eliminate terrorism (Point 2 - Reduction of global meddling in middle eastern affairs), will you yourself stop meddling in their affairs?



I guess we were discussing an issue closer to home. Suicide bombings, chain bombings etc. in our own country by Pakistani or Pakistani aided militants. I don't understand what this essay on the israeli-palestinian conflict had to do with it.



Khaya piya kuch nahi, gilaas toda barah aana!!

[CtrlAltDel]

if it means RAW igniting shia-sunni conflict in pakistan, let it happen. let the terrorists slaughter each other, its good for us.

Why this indifference ?

1. Shia - Sunni conflict, do you think it will let India rest in Peace

2. Shia - Sunni conflict (Shia - Sunni two major branches in Islam) you proceed the statement with let the terrorists slaughter each other. A menial and a rot thought.

RAW hasnt started the shia-sunni conflict in pakistan. its already existing and only a matter of RAW taking advantage of it. in india there is no example of such violent animosity between the two sects inspite of such regular occurance in india's neighborhood. just a couple of years ago, there was a spark of a quarrel between shia and sunni groups in Lucknow, but it was nipped in the bud by the elders from both communities and the cops. thats why i dont think there is a danger of such a conflict occuring in india.
my comment abt "terrorists" was abt the people who lead such attacks in pakistan or elsewhere. in every such attack, a shia or sunni militant leader is always killed by the rival sect. of corz, the common shias and sunnis around are unfortunate collaterals in such attacks, but what can we do abt them...
my point was that such conflict in pakistan wud keep the local militants busy exterminating their local rivals and leaving india alone atleast for sometime. even the paki army wud be busier controlling such fights and arresting/killing the perpetrators. we are at an advantage either ways.

this strategy is similar to the mumbai police pitting rival gangsters against one another and having them eliminate themselves.

3. Shia - Sunni conflict, one mistake the west did by promoting Wahabissm.

excuse me...didnt this conflict exist ever since the Shia ideology was born centuries before...? why do u think Arabs and Iranians hate each other - the west played no role in it...

Shia - Sunni conflict if fanned will ensure the Parts of Europe and 100% Asia dissemiate.
A conflict on the other hand if fanned in India will ensure that India rolls back a 100 years.

:lol: u over-estimate the situation my friend...if u have noticed, this conflict takes an ugly turn only where either of them are in a majority in a country. in non-muslim majority countries (like India for example), shias and sunnis coexist peacefully.

Idolisation of Bush ...... check the price of petrol, simple grassroot level. This is threatning to start a global recession. So much for freedom....

where did these come from?

[akhilis2cool]

Idolisation of Bush has led to already untold misery, rolling back is getting even more painful. How, check the price of petrol, simple grassroot level.

This is threatning to start a global recession. So much for freedom....

wow! didnt know that!

[DQ]

Ok I am out of this.

Except PMOW I do not concur with any other but if I continue its gonna turn into one of the very many other discussions.



Just how simple it is getting away by terming any body a Shia or Sunni militant leader. Aha really.....shows ho much you have studied.



Jai Shri Modi.

-----------------------------------

Live in your own opaque world.

[CtrlAltDel]

....Just how simple it is getting away by terming any body a Shia or Sunni militant leader.

isnt the shia-sunni violence committed by the militant types...? are u saying that the perpetrators of such communal violence are common people? whats wrong in calling them militants or terrorists...? wud u be happy if i say that CIA and Mossad agents commit this violence in pakistan..?

either u dont understand english very well or your logic is way above me...

Aha really.....shows ho much you have studied.

whatever i studied, it never showed that common people are involved in shia-sunni violence...i dont know what point u are trying to make...

Jai Shri Modi.

:lol: the last card u can play when u have nothing to say!

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Why this indifference ?

Why this indifference? What about your indifference to the thousands of Indian lives being lost every year at the hands of pakistani sponsored terrorrism? You want all the worlds muslim problems (in which India is no way involved) to be solved before you even condemn the terrorrist acts leave alone think about solutions. Your indifference is revolting.

I don't understand what this essay on the israeli-palestinian conflict had to do with it.

You know the cow essay? A student when asked to write an essay on airplane write "I was flying in an airplane and saw a cow grazing. The cow is white, has four legs and two horne...". It is the same case... all terrorrism is justified because palestines are being oppressed by jews. And the whole world should suffer for this.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Jai Shri Modi.

Blasphemy!!! Kafir!!!



Stone him!

[Lucifer]

I don't know how this is going to be taken, but her goes anyway.



Terrorism, like any other thing, is highly subjective. One man's terrorist is always another man's freedom fighter. Make no mistake, I condemn terrorism of all kinds. But that is terrorism as I perceive it to be. How can any of us say with supreme conviction that our perspectives are always right?



In fact, there is no wrong or right perspective actually. We all have our own perspectives and there is no way we could judge what is right and what is not. They are just differences of opinion. I am not justifying anything because I believe violence is simply wrong.



I cannot think of more than two instances where violence was justified - the battle of Mahabharata and the 1971 war to liberate Bangladesh from the oppression of Pakistan. Even so, I still believe there would have been better ways of dealing with the 1971 conflict. Violence is never the solution to any problem.



Anyway, my point is why do we have to label anyone kaafir if we do not agree with their views? We have our rights to disagree but do we really think it is civilised to call people names or label them something? I am as much entitled to my opinion as you are entitled to yours. Live and let live but do not sling mud.



Peace out.

[Nationalistic HP]

I don't know how this is going to be taken, but her goes anyway.

This would be taken like any other post of the discussion, unless you keep shouting and repeating your points from behind a wall a la DQ.

Terrorism, like any other thing, is highly subjective. One man's terrorist is always another man's freedom fighter. Make no mistake, I condemn terrorism of all kinds. But that is terrorism as I perceive it to be. How can any of us say with supreme conviction that our perspectives are always right?

My problem with terrorists lies not in their conviction but in their methods. If you examine the corollary of your quote above, you may notice that one would see a terrorist as a freedom fighter just because his convictions concur with that of the terrorist. Is that enough to justify his acts of terrorism?

And believe me, if both sides are sincere about bringing a conflict to end, there is no way the conflict can continue. Peace talks fail only when either one or both parties end up being DQesquely stubborn. Or maybe when a palpable solution is not to the best interests of the mediator (Usually First world countries).

I cannot think of more than two instances where violence was justified - the battle of Mahabharata and the 1971 war to liberate Bangladesh from the oppression of Pakistan. Even so, I still believe there would have been better ways of dealing with the 1971 conflict. Violence is never the solution to any problem.

Even the battle of Mahabharata could have been avoided had Krishna been a little less wily and more statesmanlike. A prime example of my earlier point about palpable solutions not being in the best interest of the mediator.

Anyways, as you say violence is never the solution to any problem, how can you be sympathatic towards the initial perpetrators of violence (terrorists, separatists, naxals etc.)?

Anyway, my point is why do we have to label anyone kaafir if we do not agree with their views? We have our rights to disagree but do we really think it is civilised to call people names or label them something? I am as much entitled to my opinion as you are entitled to yours. Live and let live but do not sling mud.

I always used to think the devil had a sense of humour.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

I don't know how this is going to be taken, but her goes anyway.

Lucifer, I always find your posts interesting and thoughtful, different from the general opinion. But in this case they are being different (and indifferent) just for the sake of being different and not much thought is going into it. You are thinking from the point of a view of developed world citizen who doesnt have a clear understanding of ground realities of India-pakistan and finds the conflict amusing. It is from this thought process that statements like 'One mans terrorrist is another man's freedom fighter' come. When I see an american making that statement, I will point him to Al-Qaeda, but when my countrymen make that statement there is nothing much I can do.

Terrorism, like any other thing, is highly subjective. One man's terrorist is always another man's freedom fighter.

Let me make one thing very clear.

FREEDOM FIGHTERS DONT KILL WOMEN AND BABIES.

From the age of mahabharata to the Indian freedom struggle, freedom fighters never killed babies.

The holy quran too is very specific about it.

[DQ]

FREEDOM FIGHTERS DONT KILL WOMEN AND BABIES.



True. But will you cut the crap. Who on these boards has glorified acts of oppression.



No body has supported oppression.



SHEDDING OF INNOCENT BLOOD IS NOT JUSTIFIED WHATEVER BE THE REASON.



But for your naivity and your beleif of righteousness heres a bit of a read.



Security forces.



October 5, 1998, the Eighth Rashtriya Rifles came to her house and took her, her husband and her eight-month-old grandson to their base in the village of Charote, some fifteen kilometers away. There they were separated. She said:



They began beating me. They said that we had been feeding the militants. They used electric shocks on my feet. I was raped. They stripped off my clothes and said they would kill me. There were many soldiers and a captain. The captain raped me, keeping everyone else outside. He told me: "You are Muslims, and you will all be treated like this." He was a Hindu, but he told me that he was a Muslim, and that his name was Shahnawaz. He forced me to confess that I had been feeding the militants. This happened on the first night. I was there for fifteen days. Then we were released.7



Ten days after their arrest, while the family was still in Charote, S.'s daughter, daughter-in-law and son were arrested and taken to another army base in Gundna village, where they were held for two days before being released.



When the family returned to their home they discovered that all of their belongings had been taken, including Rs. 10,000 [U.S.$ 250] and jewelry. At the time that Human Rights Watch interviewed S., she had not yet filed a police report but had received medical treatment from a local practitioner. She stated that she was still in pain.



Residents of Marmal, Doda, told Human Rights Watch that in early October 1998 the army cordoned off some twenty villages in the area for fifteen days and during that time took some of the local women to the army camp. Although the women did not talk about what had happened to them, from their behavior the other residents believed that a number of them had been raped.



They are looking for the militants. But they are unable to find any. So they harass the local population .... Our womenfolk are taken into the army camp, all separately. They round up the women, then take two or three in the evening. They come back after two or three days. They are very shy then, and don't want to talk about what has happened to them. The army has pressured them not to speak about what happened.8



If crazy nitwits like you are allowed to continue with your propganda, Moditva will prevail. Do you want to read some of the gory incidents of Gujrat?



Extremism : incidents like this open grounds for extremism to grow.



And HP just claiming to be nationilist does not help, look at the broader picture.



Behind a Wall, DQesuely stubborn does not help. It only shows how unreal and minor your view of the globe is. You refuse to see anyting on a broader prespective.



Not only this thread but all other threads I have always outlined where the problem lies and how it needs to be addressed. But your ilks would like to dwell in your on self construed concotion and go about creating nuisance

[Hard hitting HP]

True. But will you cut the crap. Who on these boards has glorified acts of oppression.

Maybe not glorified, but a few have definitely tried to justify them by pointing at some or the other sidenote in history.

But for your naivity and your beleif of righteousness heres a bit of a read.

Security forces.

October 5, 1998, the Eighth Rashtriya Rifles...........
...........................................................................................................
......................................................................................................................The army has pressured them not to speak about what happened.

These acts committed by the very ones who are supposed to be our protectors are deplorable to say the least. And trust me, perpetrators of these acts are dealt with severely. The forces have a very clear cut agenda against such people and a post court-martial dismissal is inevitable.

Further, these so-called human rights agencies all work on a political agenda. How many of them have tried raising a voice against the displacement of hundreds of families from the state? Or maybe against the abject poverty and unemployment in what was till a couple of decades ago the most throbbing hub of tourism in India?

And while you posted the previous post, I'm sure you missed the following points.

1. What would be the ratio of the number of acts of oppression committed by the security forces against acts committed by terrorists?

2. Without supporting the acts mentioned above, are they justification for killing innocents?

If crazy nitwits like you are allowed to continue with your propganda, Moditva will prevail. Do you want to read some of the gory incidents of Gujrat?

Now, what does what happened in Gujarat have to do with whats happening in Kashmir? Are you trying to tell me that whatever happened at Godhra was because of what was happening in Kashmir? You seriously need an education in some hard facts. Looks like your preoccupation with the middle east has left you completely in the dark about whats going on back home.

The key accused in the Sabarmati Express fire are all primarily small time goons. They have police records in crimes like theft, robbery, small time extortion etc. and have all served time. Why would their conscience vis-a-vis kashmiris suddenly get aroused after all these years when they thought of none other than themselves? I'm saying that as IMO, petty criminals are one of the most selfish people in our society today. They cannot be trusted to follow ideologies.

This was clearly a political fiasco. Remember that the train was carrying "Karsewaks" to Ayodhya for VHP's planned rally. The muslim fundamentalists wanted to counter this as the rally's success could have prompted the RSS to put enough pressure on the govt. to cede further concessions to the VHP in the Ayodhya issue. What went wrong with the plan was that they didn't take a few factors into consideration.

(a) The average gujarati is politically very gullible and the complete propoganda machinery was in the hands of their adversaries.

(b) Private news channels had hit upon the first major man-made tragedy since they became mainstream. And they went no-holds barred with the coverage of the train tragedy.

(c) Narendra Modi

What followed was perhaps the most unfortunate incident in independent India's history. A communal carnage that was supported by the state govt. and the central govt. turning a blind eye towards it. I say most unfortunate because this was many times worse than 1984 in terms of numbers as well as popular sentiment.

I witnessed the entire episode first hand and was a victim too (I suffered a major loss in business due to the riots). I don't need news clippings dug out from some archive to know what happened there.

And HP just claiming to be nationilist does not help, look at the broader picture.

Behind a Wall, DQesuely stubborn does not help. It only shows how unreal and minor your view of the globe is. You refuse to see anyting on a broader prespective.

Not only this thread but all other threads I have always outlined where the problem lies and how it needs to be addressed. But your ilks would like to dwell in your on self construed concotion and go about creating nuisance

Well....you think India's current problems have a global source? Wake up and smell the coffee!!! And here's some Bru to start with.



1. Kashmir : The root of the problem lies in the messy handling of Kashmir during partition. Culprits - Pt. Nehru, Raja Hari Singh, Sardar Patel.



2. Punjab : Another sin from the Nehru-Gandhi family. I see an Osama parallel in the way this problem cropped up. Indira Gandhi breeds a Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale to counter the growing power of the Akalis (analogous to the CIA breeding Osama?). And when he became too big for his boots, the nation erupted. Terrorism in Punjab, the killing of Indira Gandhi, the stupid retaliation by hindus against sikhs. Though the terrorism is almost wiped out from Punjab, the bad aftertaste of it still lingers.



3. North-East : Continuously indifferent attitude of the Centre towards this region, which happens to be one of the most socially and culturally vibrant part of India. Culprits : Successive governments at the centre as well as the locally elected ones in the north-east.



4. Ayodhya : Again, governments at the centre right from Pt.Nehru to the current one have kept this one alive just for the sake of keeping an issue alive for the elections. All parties have been appeasing one side or the other for the sole purpose of creating vote-banks. Culprits : The ill-meaning political class and the gullible voters.



5. Communal Strife : This too, has a source similar to the one mentioned for Ayodhya.



Nowhere do I see the middle east as being even a remote agent in any of these problems. And if I'm missing out on the bigger picture, would you be kind enough to show me some light?



And would you please show me where and when I concocted my own story and created nuisance? If you can't, then speak not a word about it and don't blame me for getting personal.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

October 5, 1998, the Eighth Rashtriya Rifles came to her house and took her, her husband and her eight-month-old grandson to their base in the village of Charote, some fifteen kilometers away. There they were separated. She said:

They began beating me. They said that we had been feeding the militants. They used electric shocks on my feet. I was raped. They stripped off my clothes and said they would kill me. There were many soldiers and a captain. The captain raped me, keeping everyone else outside. He told me: "You are Muslims, and you will all be treated like this." He was a Hindu, but he told me that he was a Muslim, and that his name was Shahnawaz. He forced me to confess that I had been feeding the militants. This happened on the first night. I was there for fifteen days. Then we were released.

Good to see that you have come out openly and laid bare your loyalities.

Now for the report, how many of these reports have been verified independently? How many were plants by Human right groups sponsored by pakistan, US and other vested interests? How do you verify the veracity of the reports? How many of these 'foreign' reporters actually go to kashmir to find truths? Even during the earth quake, all the foreign reporters were reporting from Delhi, based on stories they heard.

Now, assuming that some of these reports are true (Damn right they are true), how is it different from any of the crime you are me commit in a society? Are army men not humans and have the same strengths and weaknesses that ordinary citizens have? After all they come from the same country that we come from but with more power and even greater discipline. Do you know what a Army Solider has to go through during operational deployment
1. Under constant work stress
2. Terrorrists trying to kill them
3. The people who they are protecting are harboring terrorrists, giving information about their movement.
4. 3 - 4 of their comrades die every day in situations they have not been trained for. Army is trained to fight wars not police.

Given these conditions, any person would be under tremendous pressure and would lose control. Some may just do it because they have power. Anyway, nothing justifies crime and they are promptly punished if proof is provided.
Major Rehman of RR was recently court marshalled and given RI for raping a kashmiri women. It was not the first time in armies history.
At the same time there were allegations that a minor was raped but when army constituted a committe they found that no such girl exists and it was a plant for defaming army.
One more thing, most of the Human Rights violations were commited by SHO which consists entirely of kashmiri muslim men. The first thing Mufti govt. did when it came to power was disband SHO. Go figure.

If crazy nitwits like you are allowed to continue with your propganda, Moditva will prevail. Do you want to read some of the gory incidents of Gujrat?

Extremism : incidents like this open grounds for extremism to grow.

If you lay off your propaganda channels and stop revering Osama Bin Laden then you will know that Army is in kashmir because of terrorrism and not the other way. If your poor f*cking kashmiri muslims didnt kill Kashmiri pundits by the thousands, may be there wouldnt have been a conflict at all.
But you will never shed a tear for the people that are killed by terrorrists as long as the dead are hindu. For you only muslims lives are valuable and others dont matter.
You've never cared when Islamic terrorrists left notes on their hindu neighbors doors saying 'Run away from here but leave your daughters behind'.
Yes sire, it wont matter to you as a Hindu women can be raped, they are kafir anyway.
It also wouldnt matter to you that half a million Kashmiri pundits, the pride of hinduism, are refugees in their own land. Some f*cking HINDU MAJORITY COUTNRY this is. A whole community is devastated and no one bothers.
Neither would it matter to you that immeidately after the quake ten hindus were slaughtered... throats slit... by your beloved terrorrist brothers. They randomly rape and kill women irrespective of their faith and it wouldnt bother you as long as the one raping is a muslim.
yet you talk about human rights.

Not only this thread but all other threads I have always outlined where the problem lies and how it needs to be addressed.

You have only outlined how muslims being persecuted and how to adress it. Behind all the act you put up about womens rights and human rights, you are just a sham.

Your soultion for kashmir is to hand it over to pakistan over a platter and then may be you will demand that hyderabad be handed over.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

1. Kashmir : The root of the problem lies in the messy handling of Kashmir during partition. Culprits - Pt. Nehru, Raja Hari Singh, Sardar Patel.

I wouldnt blame Sardar Patel and Raja Hari singh for kashmirs problems. If not for sardar patel, we would have lost whatever is left of kashmir.

Quoting Field Marshall Sam Manekshaw

At the morning meeting he handed over the (Accession) thing. Mountbatten turned around and said, ' come on Manekji (He called me Manekji instead of Manekshaw), what is the military situation?' I gave him the military situation, and told him that unless we flew in troops immediately, we would have lost Srinagar, because going by road would take days, and once the tribesmen got to the airport and Srinagar, we couldn't fly troops in. Everything was ready at the airport.

As usual Nehru talked about the United Nations, Russia, Africa, God almighty, everybody, until Sardar Patel lost his temper. He said, 'Jawaharlal, do you want Kashmir, or do you want to give it away'. He (Nehru) said,' Of course, I want Kashmir (emphasis in original). Then he (Patel) said 'Please give your orders'. And before he could say anything Sardar Patel turned to me and said, 'You have got your orders'.

[DQ]

These acts committed by the very ones who are supposed to be our protectors are deplorable to say the least. And trust me, perpetrators of these acts are dealt with severely. The forces have a very clear cut agenda against such people and a post court-martial dismissal is inevitable.

Is what you beleive, how would you explain this to the person whose wife, mother, sister, daughter has been picked up by the Indian armed forces.

The Same forces out there to protect them from extremists ?

1. What would be the ratio of the number of acts of oppression committed by the security forces against acts committed by terrorists?

So what are you suggesting here, draw a parallel between the security forces and terrorists?
Evaluate which is the better of two evils.?

Not too sure what you are trying to prove here.

2. Without supporting the acts mentioned above, are they justification for killing innocents?

Have I not posted time and again that there is no justification of killing innocents. There can be no reasoning at all Staright and Simple.
All oppressors who kill innocents should be brought to justice.

If crazy nitwits like you are allowed to continue with your propganda, Moditva will prevail. Do you want to read some of the gory incidents of Gujrat?

Now, what does what happened in Gujarat have to do with whats happening in Kashmir? ............................................. Looks like your preoccupation with the middle east has left you completely in the dark about whats going on back home.

This is the indifference I am trying to drive you to buddy. The spread of extremism and creation of breeding grounds for the spread of this extremist ideology.

- Oppression of masses.
- Murder / Rape / annhilation by people in power leads to a sense of insecurity.
- This helps in creating breeding ground for extremists forces to brainwash people, and the scourge will continue.

Well....you think India's current problems have a global source? Wake up and smell the coffee!!! And here's some Bru to start with.
.............................................
..............................................

Nowhere do I see the middle east as being even a remote agent in any of these problems............................ If you can't, then speak not a word about it and don't blame me for getting personal.

If foriegn fighters is not an issue in Kashmir, I fail to see where the problem is?

Where do these foriegn fighters draw their blood from, organisation like LET.

How do they (organisations like LET)survive. ?

Well backed and funded by the Saud dynasty - the PAK govt.. (Strong allies of US who is fighting a war against LET and its likes.)



Just another query if you can explain?



What is UN-supervised plebiscite ?

When was this proposed.?

Why did it not occur?





As for MM, there is no point replying to your rant, upteenth time I have told you I will not stoop to your level.

Like,



You tend to say F*kin Kashmiri MUSLIMS killin Pandits, now an idiot would counter your arguement by replying F*kin Gujrati Hindus killin muslims etc...but it helps no one to slander and slur.



Now about my taking up the the cause of Kasmiri Muslim Women.

I also commented on the Plight of Poor Dalit Women (Incidentally Hindu)

I also commented on Dowry dead Women (Mostly Hindu)

You dint see the Hindu factor there or gleefully ignored it, and as soon as a Muslim Women is mentioned you come all blazing guns.



Still a query, why did successive Indian governments assist in the exodus of over 100,000 Pandits. Why did they not step into protect them.

What did the Successive Indian governmetns do to assist these displaced people ?



All you could muster was a defence for why a trained elite security personnel can rape a vulnerable innocent civilian? How gross and gory can you get.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

What is UN-supervised plebiscite ?
When was this proposed.?
Why did it not occur?

May be you should first tell us what you know before you query. Would be very interesting to know your interpretation of things.

You tend to say F*kin Kashmiri MUSLIMS killin Pandits, now an idiot would counter your arguement by replying F*kin Gujrati Hindus killin muslims etc...but it helps no one to slander and slur.

The stress is not on 'muslims' but on their kashmiri identity, but then I dont mind your interpretation.

Now about my taking up the the cause of Kasmiri Muslim Women.
I also commented on the Plight of Poor Dalit Women (Incidentally Hindu)
I also commented on Dowry dead Women (Mostly Hindu)
You dint see the Hindu factor there or gleefully ignored it, and as soon as a Muslim Women is mentioned you come all blazing guns.

And I took up the cause of muslim wimmen oppressed everywhere and you countered by saying that its not oppression but freedom!
You are highliting oppression of Kashmiri muslim women but conveniently ignore the other side of the coin, the harrasment of hindus, which is much stark.

Still a query, why did successive Indian governments assist in the exodus of over 100,000 Pandits. Why did they not step into protect them.

You think the army is having a picnic in Kashmir?

What did the Successive Indian governmetns do to assist these displaced people ?

It did nothing but provide a single room housing in refugee camps. People who were living in palatial houses and were rich are now reduced to penury and most of them are suffering from psychological problems owing to their bad living conditions and traumatic past.
Why is not the government do more? what can it do?

All you could muster was a defence for why a trained elite security personnel can rape a vulnerable innocent civilian? How gross and gory can you get.

It is not a defence but ground reality. It is way better than supporting terrorrism and terrorrists like you because I understand the cause and I know the cure. Atleast I didnt give you a reason like 'hindus are being oppressed in pakistan and bangladesh, so its but natural reaction'.

Btw, I see that you conveniently ignored my question about the veracity of the reports. But then its not new. You always ignore inconvenient questions.