New Delhi Bombings

[talky]

Moreover I request my fellow Indians not to land on premature conclusions and invoke another fire of hatred that will do no good to any of us except to those behind the incident.

I second that.

3rd

[Lucifer]

I think we are getting personal here. Putting your point across is one thing but saying what the other said is stupid or a load of crap is making the issue personal. We are all entitled to our views. And who is to say if they are right or wrong?

[Portuguese Man-Of-War]

We are a nation of cowards. Time and again the enemy kicks us in the nuts and still we extend our hand in peace only to get kicked again. The international community will advice us to excercise restraint and the countless kandle kissers will demand that we dont abandon the peace talks. Why not? None of their kin ever get killed in these acts and the lives of rest of indians dont matter to them. After all we are a billion!
How long are we going to tolerate this? What is the price we are willing to pay to achieve peace?
Have we become so insensitive to terrorrism that 100's of people get killed every year and we still dont demand action?

You cannot engage a country in war when:



a. it wants war, and

b. it has nukes



Pakistan is a poor country where in the hinterland most people do not have hope for a better future. Their kids don't go to school, they do not have 2 meals a day on most days, they lack dignity and human rights. Such people can be easily made to believe that someone else is responsible for their plight (read: someone from across the border). And there are several people whose personal agendas are helped by such propaganda.



I have often felt that India's prosperity lies in Pakistan's prosperity. To curb Pakistan's militancy, we should make Pakistan rich, and dependant on us for that.



Pakistan's exports to India are less than $1b currently, as far as I know. Suppose Pakistan were exporting $20b a year to India, of its entire GDP of about $280b (India's is $800b).



The actual impact on Pakistan's GDP of this revenue would be manifold, primarily through:



1. Exports to other countries by these same industries which have reached critical mass due to exports to India

2. Multiplier effect on GDP due to spending by these industries



I am sure that Pakistan's top economic brass would know this. And then they would not rock their boat. You do not mess with a country which is providing you a good part of your income, which is your big customer. Just like we are forever apprehensive of antagonizing the US (refer the Iran episode).



I am sure that our own economists know this. All terrorism breeds due to poverty. That is the root.



Of course, this is a theoretical solution. But I think it forms the basis for how the developed world deals with terrorist hotbeds. There is a long-term strategy behind all individual responses we see.



When you go to war, you do exactly what the terrorists want you to do. They are people anyway willing to die. You nuking them makes no difference to them. They will nuke you too.



When you are much bigger than someone else, and they have nothing to lose, you will always come out at the short end in a stand-off - look at the US in Iraq. We just work smart to minimize damage. We will lose innocent people in acts of terrorism. That can never be completely eliminated. We just work stretegically to minimize it, both in the short term and in the long term, and hopefully, bring it to an end in 15, 20, 50 years. Getting emotional will just mean playing into their hands, and much more damage.

[DQ]

We are a nation of cowards. Time and again the enemy kicks us in the nuts and still we extend our hand in peace only to get kicked again. The international community will advice us to excercise restraint and the countless kandle kissers will demand that we dont abandon the peace talks. Why not? None of their kin ever get killed in these acts and the lives of rest of indians dont matter to them. After all we are a billion!
How long are we going to tolerate this? What is the price we are willing to pay to achieve peace?
Have we become so insensitive to terrorrism that 100's of people get killed every year and we still dont demand action?

You cannot engage a country in war when:

a. it wants war, and
b. it has nukes

Pakistan is a poor country where in the hinterland most people do not have hope for a better future. Their kids don't go to school, they do not have 2 meals a day on most days, they lack dignity and human rights. Such people can be easily made to believe that someone else is responsible for their plight (read: someone from across the border). And there are several people whose personal agendas are helped by such propaganda.

I have often felt that India's prosperity lies in Pakistan's prosperity. To curb Pakistan's militancy, we should make Pakistan rich, and dependant on us for that.

Pakistan's exports to India are less than $1b currently, as far as I know. Suppose Pakistan were exporting $20b a year to India, of its entire GDP of about $280b (India's is $800b).

The actual impact on Pakistan's GDP of this revenue would be manifold, primarily through:

1. Exports to other countries by these same industries which have reached critical mass due to exports to India
2. Multiplier effect on GDP due to spending by these industries

I am sure that Pakistan's top economic brass would know this. And then they would not rock their boat. You do not mess with a country which is providing you a good part of your income, which is your big customer. Just like we are forever apprehensive of antagonizing the US (refer the Iran episode).

I am sure that our own economists know this. All terrorism breeds due to poverty. That is the root.

Of course, this is a theoretical solution. But I think it forms the basis for how the developed world deals with terrorist hotbeds. There is a long-term strategy behind all individual responses we see.

When you go to war, you do exactly what the terrorists want you to do. They are people anyway willing to die. You nuking them makes no difference to them. They will nuke you too.

When you are much bigger than someone else, and they have nothing to lose, you will always come out at the short end in a stand-off - look at the US in Iraq. We just work smart to minimize damage. We will lose innocent people in acts of terrorism. That can never be completely eliminated. We just work stretegically to minimize it, both in the short term and in the long term, and hopefully, bring it to an end in 15, 20, 50 years. Getting emotional will just mean playing into their hands, and much more damage.

Clap Clap Clap.......Well written PMOW

[akhilis2cool]

Suppose Pakistan were exporting $20b a year to India, of its entire GDP of about $280b (India's is $800b).

The actual impact on Pakistan's GDP of this revenue would be manifold, primarily through:

1. Exports to other countries by these same industries which have reached critical mass due to exports to India
2. Multiplier effect on GDP due to spending by these industries

I am sure that Pakistan's top economic brass would know this. And then they would not rock their boat. You do not mess with a country which is providing you a good part of your income, which is your big customer. Just like we are forever apprehensive of antagonizing the US (refer the Iran episode).

I am sure that our own economists know this. All terrorism breeds due to poverty. That is the root.

Of course, this is a theoretical solution. But I think it forms the basis for how the developed world deals with terrorist hotbeds. There is a long-term strategy behind all individual responses we see.

What makes u think that pakistan wld want to put itself into this kind of a situation where it will depend on India for its revenues?

If this were a solution it wld have been implemented long back.

As long as all the talks revolve arnd whts happening in kashmir, theres little chance that something like this will workout. Our leaders have repeatedly extended friendship offers to pakistan and we all know how they have responded. Pakistan still promotes terrorist camps with the sole intention of spreading terrorism in India. I wonder what there 'long-term strategy' is

may b u have a theoretical solution for that too

[CtrlAltDel]

the pakis themselves say that normal commercial relations are not possible until the Kashmir issue is resolved (ie, until they get kashmir). thats why its utopian to expect them to open up their economy vis a vis India and be put in a disadvantage.



but i agree with PMOW on one thing: in the current situation, an economically better off pakistan under Musharraf is safer for India. an unstable and weak pakistan wud push it in the hands of the rabid mullahs and that wud be the end of peace as we know it. thats why India shud think twice before lanching any ill adviced conflict based on emotions.



at worst we can play their game and encourage a "proxy war" in balochistan, sindh and waziristan (tribal areas bordering afghanistan).

[pingu]

at worst we can play their game and encourage a "proxy war" in balochistan, sindh and waziristan (tribal areas bordering afghanistan).

i think something of the sort is going on .... these "fiercely independent" areas dont have an negligible RAW presence .. and RAW is almost as big a demon in the pakistani press as ISI is here ... no smoke without fire ...

[CtrlAltDel]

at worst we can play their game and encourage a "proxy war" in balochistan, sindh and waziristan (tribal areas bordering afghanistan).

i think something of the sort is going on .... these "fiercely independent" areas dont have an negligible RAW presence .. and RAW is almost as big a demon in the pakistani press as ISI is here ... no smoke without fire ...

that cud be true...but just like indian press n politicians tend to unnecessarily blame the ISI for every sneeze or flood, i feel their paki counterparts also blame every pin prick on RAW. fr'instance everytime shias n sunnis slaughter each other, the paki govt hints at an indian hand and silently arrest the real sectarian culprits

[pingu]

everytime shias n sunnis slaughter each other

ive never understood the deal behind that .. is that something like the caste based crap we have here? and is it serious ?

[akhilis2cool]

at worst we can play their game and encourage a "proxy war" in balochistan, sindh and waziristan (tribal areas bordering afghanistan).

i think something of the sort is going on .... these "fiercely independent" areas dont have an negligible RAW presence .. and RAW is almost as big a demon in the pakistani press as ISI is here ... no smoke without fire ...

can v even compare the ISIs activities to RAW? RAW is an intelligence wgency and its doing its job. But can the same b said abt ISI?

[fp]

can v even compare the ISIs activities to RAW? RAW is an intelligence wgency and its doing its job. But can the same b said abt ISI?

ofcourse the same can be said about ISI .. they too are doing their job ... its just a job that not too many of us approve of .. and RAW does things that pakistan doesnt approve of ..

[CtrlAltDel]

at worst we can play their game and encourage a "proxy war" in balochistan, sindh and waziristan (tribal areas bordering afghanistan).

i think something of the sort is going on .... these "fiercely independent" areas dont have an negligible RAW presence .. and RAW is almost as big a demon in the pakistani press as ISI is here ... no smoke without fire ...

can v even compare the ISIs activities to RAW? RAW is an intelligence wgency and its doing its job. But can the same b said abt ISI?

ISI is pakisan's intelligence agency and its doing its job too

what makes u so sure RAW doesnt work to undermine pakistan just as ISI is doing to India...?

[akhilis2cool]

can v even compare the ISIs activities to RAW? RAW is an intelligence wgency and its doing its job. But can the same b said abt ISI?

ofcourse the same can be said about ISI .. they too are doing their job ... its just a job that not too many of us approve of .. and RAW does things that pakistan doesnt approve of ..

byt its job i meant collecting intellegence from across the border...not aiding terorrist organisations.

[CtrlAltDel]

can v even compare the ISIs activities to RAW? RAW is an intelligence wgency and its doing its job. But can the same b said abt ISI?

ofcourse the same can be said about ISI .. they too are doing their job ... its just a job that not too many of us approve of .. and RAW does things that pakistan doesnt approve of ..

byt its job i meant collecting intellegence from across the border...not aiding terorrist organisations.

what makes u so sure RAW isnt doing the same there?

[akhilis2cool]

what makes u so sure RAW isnt doing the same there?

never heard of terorrist attacks on pakistani's in pakistan by pakistani terorrists...if RAW were doing that, why is pakistan quiet about it? why does it never speak on those lines?

[Intellipedia HP]

what makes u so sure RAW isnt doing the same there?

never heard of terorrist attacks on pakistani's in pakistan by pakistani terorrists...if RAW were doing that, why is pakistan quiet about it? why does it never speak on those lines?

Collection of intelligence is an intelligence agency's prime job, though not necessary its sole job. intelligence agencies the world over indulge in acts of destabilisation etc. and RAW is no novice to the game.



The methods of different agencies might differ. For example, the CIA & the now defunct KGB have a history of political destabilisation through disinformation. ISI works in tandem with terrorist groups. RAW's modus operandi in Kashmir has been more of a guerilla kind of skirmish. They perpetrate small clashes which are manipulated into escalation on a much bigger scale. Many of the Shia-Sunni clashes in pakistan can be attributed to RAW.

[Intellipedia HP]

if RAW were doing that, why is pakistan quiet about it? why does it never speak on those lines?

Credit goes to RAW's finesse where they don't leave a very overt proof of their culpability the way ISI does. And Pakistan can't shout from the rooftops like India does because it can't back its words with proof.

[akhilis2cool]

RAW's modus operandi in Kashmir has been more of a guerilla kind of skirmish. They perpetrate small clashes which are manipulated into escalation on a much bigger scale. Many of the Shia-Sunni clashes in pakistan can be attributed to RAW.

yeah ok...but wld u say these acts are committed on as large a scale as by ISI in India?

[Intellipedia HP]

RAW's modus operandi in Kashmir has been more of a guerilla kind of skirmish. They perpetrate small clashes which are manipulated into escalation on a much bigger scale. Many of the Shia-Sunni clashes in pakistan can be attributed to RAW.

yeah ok...but wld u say these acts are committed on as large a scale as by ISI in India?

No they aren't. And thats what I meant when I said finesse. Any large scale activity is immediately visible. And given the state of affairs in Pakistan, even these small scale activities destabilise them in a big way.



As the saying goes in hindi, Jahaan sui se kaam chalta ho, wahaan talwaar ki kya zaroorat?

[akhilis2cool]

RAW's modus operandi in Kashmir has been more of a guerilla kind of skirmish. They perpetrate small clashes which are manipulated into escalation on a much bigger scale. Many of the Shia-Sunni clashes in pakistan can be attributed to RAW.

yeah ok...but wld u say these acts are committed on as large a scale as by ISI in India?

No they aren't. And thats what I meant when I said finesse. Any large scale activity is immediately visible. And given the state of affairs in Pakistan, even these small scale activities destabilise them in a big way.

As the saying goes in hindi, Jahaan sui se kaam chalta ho, wahaan talwaar ki kya zaroorat?

Vokay!

[fp]

what makes u so sure RAW isnt doing the same there?

never heard of terorrist attacks on pakistani's in pakistan by pakistani terorrists...if RAW were doing that, why is pakistan quiet about it? why does it never speak on those lines?

Collection of intelligence is an intelligence agency's prime job, though not necessary its sole job. intelligence agencies the world over indulge in acts of destabilisation etc. and RAW is no novice to the game.

The methods of different agencies might differ. For example, the CIA & the now defunct KGB have a history of political destabilisation through disinformation. ISI works in tandem with terrorist groups. RAW's modus operandi in Kashmir has been more of a guerilla kind of skirmish. They perpetrate small clashes which are manipulated into escalation on a much bigger scale. Many of the Shia-Sunni clashes in pakistan can be attributed to RAW.

can somebody please enlighten this poor uninformed soul what the hell these sectarian clashes are all about ....



yes i can google but dont want to ...

[dareversesting]

where did da topic start and where is it heading

[DQ]

Exactly, where is this heading to.



If secratarian violence is attributed to RAW,



Was RAW active in Afghanistan

Is it Active from Syria to Lebanon to Yemen to IRAQ. The answer is NO.



RAW is more of intelligence gathering and well meaning guys like your selves ridicule India by attributing nefracious activities to RAW.



And the so called RVs in their eagerness to tread the line of bigoted propoganda would always want to create nuisance.



Well waht all of us tend to ignore here is extremism and its spread. The scourge of extremism is real and there is no quick fix solution to it, like the so called RVs would want to beleive, bombing nations, nuke warfare is not going to eliminate it. (Shows that extremism exists in one form or another every where)



Among the factors that can help eliminate extremism



1. A Democratic United Palestinian / Israeli state.(lol it can never happen,)

Now before you jump hubba bubba let me give you an insight of the palestinian / Israeli conflict.



Source - http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html



Also read THE COVENANT OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS, before blabbing.



"Balfour Declaration" issued by the British Government in 1917, expressing support for "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people (there are no records which show the percentage of Arab and Jewish poulations then)"

Why then was this expression of support. If true democracy had to spread why was this nation not given soverign right?.



anyway



During the years of the Palestine Mandate, from 1922 to 1947, large-scale Jewish immigration from abroad, mainly from Eastern Europe took place, the numbers swelling in the 1930s with the notorious Nazi persecution of Jewish populations. (So according to todays defination of certain communities being "Walled Off" the need then was fr this displaced people to integrate into country of Migration.)



What Happened?



After looking at various alternatives, the UN proposed the partitioning of Palestine into two independent States, one Palestinian Arab and the other Jewish, with Jerusalem internationalized (Resolution 181 (II) of 1947). One of the two States envisaged in the partition plan proclaimed its independence as Israel and in the 1948 war expanded to occupy 77 per cent of the territory of Palestine. Israel also occupied the larger part of Jerusalem. Over half the indigenous Palestinian population fled or were expelled. Jordan and Egypt occupied the other parts of the territory assigned by the partition resolution to the Palestinian Arab State which did not come into being.



In the 1967 war, Israel occupied the remaining territory of Palestine, until then under Jordanian and Egyptian control (the West Bank and Gaza Strip). This included the remaining part of Jerusalem, which was subsequently annexed by Israel. The war brought about a second exodus of Palestinians, estimated at half a million. Security Council resolution 242 (1967) of 22 November 1967 called on Israel to withdraw from territories it had occupied in the 1967 conflict.



The UN and the Mandatory nations should undo this and help in establishing a single democratic nation.





2. Reduction of global meddling in middle eastern affairs.

For example stopping the support to the Wahabbi Royal kingdom. A school of thought (helped and created and financed by US) that has annhilated most of the Muslim World and now has spread and sits poised to become the sole cause of destruction of millions. through its nefracious activities, one of its sub wing being Al Qaeda.



3. A Democratic Saudi Arabia free of US intervention, this will give rise to formation of liberated Arab common man, whose freedom from staunch despots automatically will give rise to true democracy and a peaceful Globe.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

You cannot engage a country in war when:
a. it wants war, and
b. it has nukes

A. Pakistani army is running the country and is not in a shape to fight war.
B. A section of the Indian intelligentsia/Army believes that pakistan is nuke nude. Surely US wont be giving it billions of dollars of aid without some sort of control on the only Islamic bomb.

If we declare war on pakistan today, it will be a walk in the park. IAF and IN are vastly superior to anything pakistan has and IA enjoys 2:1 superiority over PA, not to talk about higher morale. Inspite of this military supremacy and valid reasons to go to war, I do not propose war.

War is hell. There will be loss of life on both sides and it will hurt our aspirations to become an economic power based on exports. So, It is best to avoid it. What I want to see India do is make a stand. Make pakistan know that if you hit us, we will hit you where it hurts. This can be done in any number of ways without the situation escalating into war.

India can wage a covert war on the lines of pakistani sponsored terrorrism. We can use assassinations to destroy the jihadi machinery in pakistan. All it needs is resolve which is what is missing in the current leadership and the population.

When was the last time the National Media has demanded the government take action?
When was the last time we saw the elites demanding an end to this problem?
What has the government done to show to its average citizen that the country is secure?
The answer is NEVER
We have a national media which is more sympathetic to the cause of pakistan than India. We have an elite which always wants India to be on a higher moral ground no matter how much we are suffereing.

Pakistan is a poor country where in the hinterland most people do not have hope for a better future. Their kids don't go to school, they do not have 2 meals a day on most days, they lack dignity and human rights. Such people can be easily made to believe that someone else is responsible for their plight (read: someone from across the border). And there are several people whose personal agendas are helped by such propaganda.

I have often felt that India's prosperity lies in Pakistan's prosperity. To curb Pakistan's militancy, we should make Pakistan rich, and dependant on us for that.

Unfortunately this is the view held by majority of Indians. We think that average abdul of pakistan is poor and hence he is gullible and few anti-India elements are misleading them. Whereas the fact is that they are being kept poor by a military regime and the ruling elite whose survival depends on the Indo-pak enimity. The army will never let pakistan become rich. More than 8% of pakis GDP is spend on defence (>60% of budget). These are the people who control everything from universitites to sports to industries.

By making pakistan rich, we will only enrich these people who control pakistan. More money to buy weapons, to wage war.... exactly what happened in 1965. A rich and prosperous pakistan only means war.

Suppose Pakistan were exporting $20b a year to India, of its entire GDP of about $280b (India's is $800b).

Pakistans GDP is around $ 70 Billion. Thanks to some 'Shortcut' Aziz's number gimmicks, it is being touted as $ 90 billion.

The actual impact on Pakistan's GDP of this revenue would be manifold, primarily through:

1. Exports to other countries by these same industries which have reached critical mass due to exports to India
2. Multiplier effect on GDP due to spending by these industries

Pakistan didnt want to take Indias economic aid when they faced a natural disaster. Do you really think they will let Indian companies trade there?

I am sure that Pakistan's top economic brass would know this. And then they would not rock their boat. You do not mess with a country which is providing you a good part of your income, which is your big customer. Just like we are forever apprehensive of antagonizing the US (refer the Iran episode).

I am sure that our own economists know this. All terrorism breeds due to poverty. That is the root.

OSAMA BIN LADEN, Mohammed ATTA.

Of course, this is a theoretical solution. But I think it forms the basis for how the developed world deals with terrorist hotbeds. There is a long-term strategy behind all individual responses we see.

Developed worlds have different ways to deal with terrorrism. US for example went all out and attacked Afghanistan, but when it came to paksitan they chose to bribe musharraf meaning they are buying peace.

UK chose different path. After one attack, they have started reforming. They are also bribing musharraf to rein in his terrorists, but they are making institutional changes to curb terrorrism.

India - NADA. We are resilient. Resilience my foot. Life doesnt mean anything in India. The least we can do is punish those inside india who have supported the terrorrist acts. Punish the bloody UP politician who has given refuge to the terrorists in the recnt attack. No, it wont be done. We dont want communal riots.

[Akshay]

I totally agree with MM.



People who claim that there is a root cause for terrorism and continually refer back to palestine or any such single issue are simply deluding themselves and others about a panacea. There are all kinds of people participating in terrorism: mercenaries, mafia, nationalists, idealists, fanatics, lunatics, brainwashed, young, senile, adult, male, female, disadvantaged, devastated, humiliated, robbed, maimed, religious, tyrants, thugs, kidnappers, rapists, murderers, cowards, priests, military, doctors, engineers, literate, illiterate, and what not. Each participant is driven by his/her own mental state to perform attrocities against perceived enemy. The pandemic global terrorism has just given a platform for all anti-social violent expressions. There is just no single root cause that drives all of them and therefore no single solution that pacifies all of them.





This pandemic needs to be treated as we treat any other pandemic. We need to monitor, control, and annihilate it one place at a time, starting within first asap. We have monitoring capabilitoes to some extent. We can control it by both demotivating the participants by whatever non-violent means are available. At the same time we need to show the guts to annihilate the cancer by using force when necessary and not wimp when a self serving bigoted son-of-a-bitch mulah, politician or pundit cries "religious persecution". This is exactly what the US does when it takes the fight to the enemy and busts their asses day and night. For all the talk about Bush's unfair global military actions we must accept that it is because of those same actions US has sent a stern message to the terrorists. This is so contrary to our hijda napunsak politicians, governments, institutions, media and population which make sissy immitations of US in terms of safety, security, democracy, intellect and such only to fart voluble but act imbecile. We sickeningly keep electing as our representatives those who give shelter to these same terrorists; I am talking about Mulayam (mother _ was a defence minister in the past), Lallu (son of a bitch is a rail minister now), Sahabuddin, Owaisi and the like. We will never defeat pandemics by morals, political righteousness, largesse, love and tolerance.