Is it high time for us to abolish the RESERVATIONS for SC, S

by **Z C** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 4:44 pm

That shud be Atul, not Kumar...

by **Arch** » Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:18 pm

Sorry Atul, it was too late for me to go to fullhyd last night but i woke up early so that I can quickly write another passing thought. This is one of the many examples of actual people that i will be giving: This is my Mom\'s childhood\'s class/hostel-mate. She is a brahmin. A brilliant and a very enthusiastic student. Comes from an extremlly poor family where the parents and the children (6 ) did not have a proper 1 square meal (at home)to eat nor did they have right kind of clothes to wear at hostel/to school. The 2 sisters used to make do with 2 pairs of good clothes by alternately using them by washing them everyday.I understand that a lot of kids in the hostel and in the school used to make fun of their poverty until they got to know about the 2 sisters brilliance. The sisters used to put in immense amts of work at their studies and Some of the students started despising them and some felt that they do not need to feel sorry for their poverty any more ! (the brainyy are despised Atul !! they do not deserve the sympathy nor the understanding for them to work at thier goals !! a surprise, huh !) These 2 sisters, inspite of all these probs from the society are 2 very well known doctors in hyderabad today and at times as consultants come to US too.

by b. » Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:48 pm

ZC and team, appreciate your inputs, but I beg to differ. Even in advanced countries, people are given a minority quota. So maybe what we can do is revise the old system but still provide some breathing space to the minorities.

by **Arch** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 1:25 am

do we have to ape the advanced countries everywhere? just coz\' they have quota for the minorities we have to have? is that reason enuf?

by **Arch** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:39 am

.. to further give some of my feed back on some of my acquaintences, there\'s a relative of mine, by marriage into my family who happens to be from a scheduled caste. She is a double post gradute and is working with the central govenrment holding quiet a high position in India. She is otherwise quiet intelligent and efficient at her home and while socialising too. While vactioning at hyderabad, I once, when visited at her office, I could see that she was very uncomfortable with my being at her workplace. Her discomfort further precipitated my interest to know the reason but left it there when I had an inclination what could have made her feel uncomfortable with my presence at her office but NOT at home/ or out socially. As I was packing to come back home to san jose, she approached me with an \'explanation\' !! she told me that the job that she has taken makes her feel that it does NOT belong to her nor does she feel that she has better academic carreer, inspite of the double post graduation that she has to her credit. she feels that there are people who are working under her with much more knowledge than she has inspite of they being just graduates(professional grads from general quota) and that it eats into her confidence everyday she goes to office and it eats into her conscience when she takes her paycheck home.. etc etc. you can use ur imagination further for what else she cud have expressed. Do we need to make them undergo such immense pain for the wrong doings of our ancestors\'s mistakes? Do we still need them to pay us back in such ways as to make them feel sick of themselves each day? why do we have to make them feel as if they are good for nothing when we actually need for them to retain their self respect? atleast now? why do you have to give her that special treatment and make her feel that she\'s a dumbo when in actuality she is not? Do you see what our over enthusiasm and our extra sympathetic gestures are making them feel? Do they still have to feel that they owe the general populace their lives and their self respect? Why can\'t we, as a society, get hold of them early (any of those children whose parents are not able to give the req. care) and ingrate into them the requirement of a good education, instead? why do we have to think if we forego our right of getting \'that\' seat on the basis of merrit, my payback is done for what my ancestors have done ????

by **Atul** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 9:01 am

hi Arch your first example of two sisters was pretty interesting and very inspiring. It only fortifies what I said before that no one can stop a brilliant person from achieving his or her goal and he/she would definitely rise to fame no matter what. u said those two girls were Brahmins and were very brilliant. Suppose we have a girl from an equally poor SC family, though she is brilliant, she may not even think of going to school, living in a hostel is something out of question. This is where the two castes differ. Poverty is something common to all castes, but the mindset towards education varies from caste to caste. For Brahmins, education is the foremost thing. It is given the highest priority, but for SC/ST caste its given the least priority (in most cases), and education is the only means by which a person can improve his quality of life (u cant deny this). There has to be something lucrative, which should attracts such backward people to get educated and to get into the main streams. I guess reservations are catering this purpose. Now coming to your second example, I am sorry to say, it sounds very absurd. U mean to say that, a person is suffering immense pain because she has received more than what she deserves. If she is really that ashamed of her job, why doesn’t she resign???? Why does she accept promotions??? And Arch u haven’t answered my questions about whether u want all the other reservations like handicap, NCC etc also to be abolished.

by **Z C** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 10:32 am

Atul, nobody is denying them education, we just dont want some _ to be our boss. what u say is like \"kanakapu simhasanamu py sunakamu\". again i am putting the same question. y were reservations from PG medicine removed ?

by b. » Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:50 am

Dear Arch, it is not a question of aping anyone. We are already an advanced democracy as a nation. We can talk about consensus or referendum. But we cannot ignore others\'s points of view.

by **Arch** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 2:10 pm

I have not professed ignoring other\'s point of view at all, B. I am all for learning from whomever it is. Not blindly aping though. If the advanced countries have reservations for minorities, is it not so for the sheer reason of politics and for wooing the voters? which politician cares for the minorites or otherwise ! Lets not be naive here. If the US has to learn something from us, it shud be NOT having any reservations in fact. They are trying to have reservations for the minorities called affirmative action and the repercussions of those reservations are already being felt among the whites. they have severe dislike twds the minority groups for the simple reason that they feel that the minorities do not deserve those appointments based on the lack of education or the experience of the minorities. There is immense amts of friction developing amongst the 2 groups. Now US is an advanced country and well.. they are still in the beginning stages of feeling the wrath of the reservations. The wrath has not seeped into the system yet, though and they all are already fighting away the affirmative action ! Did it make sense? i am not even reading my reply before signing off, its 1:30am and I gtg and sleep and I am yet to ans Atul, thot urs might be smaller and started writing.. goodnight.

by **Atul** » Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:34 pm

Hi ZC: I am not saying that someone is stopping them from joining a school, I am only pointing out the differences between an SC family and an OC family. Had there been two SC girls equally brilliant in place of those Brahmin girls, they would not even have thought of joining a school. In such a case who is in a better position? Now regarding the cancellation of reservations in PG, I am realy not aware of this, hence I don\'t want to comment on it.

by **Z C** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:33 am

now you know, right? so pls think and comment, why did the govt remove it? if they are equally brilliant and are lazy... ha ha ha. i think hard work should be paid for, not laziness.

by **Arch** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:56 am

Atul did u ask urself what happened to the rest of the 4 siblings of those 2 doctors? They could not fight so much as these 2 sisters did against the SC/ST/BC/Women/sports/Ncc/whatnot quota that they needed to study against !!! They are brilliant too, but could not fight so much for such lengths of time over a period of those many years.They could not get into any of the professional colleges !! who are the loosers? us, the society. Now going to the second example, she feels that she\'s taken somebody else\'s rightful place, and rightly so because she HAS ! lot later..

by **Arch** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 7:59 pm

.. in continuation, we feel pride and a sense of achievement when we take up challenges and prove ourselves to be the best, TO OURSELVES. However small those challenges could be to the others, Atul. The same pride and the feeling wonderful about oneself does not exist when somebody else sacrifices away his share of work and in actuality it makes us feel that much more little. So, for us to feel that \'wow\' about ourselves we need not degrade somebodyelse. Let them have their own set of achievements and live their lives with dignity.

by **Atul** » Thu Jul 17, 2003 9:40 pm

hi Arch thanks for your response, i guess niether of us are convinced from each others argument, so its better that i stop argueing about that. I feel its no use of asking about other 4 siblings of those two sisters or about sister-in-law of that lady..... I am starting a new board which puts some light on the current relatons between india and pakistan. I would be very glad if we could discuss on that issue. i am sure we would agree on that.

by **Anil** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:58 am

I was waiting long for anyone else apart from Atul who will balance this rather unabashed parade of neo-manuism in both subtle and blatant fashion and a rather one-sided bashing spree! Seeing the postings so far, I have come to the following conclusion: The forward castes are still living under this age-old illusion that Every Single Person from the forward castes is highly talented and it is only the reservation policy that is coming in between to achieve their goals and Everyone from SC/ST/BC are dullards and whoever is occupying the top positions from these groups are there just by virtue of reservation policy!
 
 To start with, it’s high time the upper castes stop playing this \"we are the very embodiment of talent card\" We already played that ad nauseam and it lost its fizzle. Moreover, now that human genome has been finished and has been found that we after all have only 30000 to 40000 genes. This low count of genes (as against an initial projection of 60000 to 120000 genes) has led to conclusion that what we are is governed more by the environment than the genes we are made up of. Just go to any Medical or Engineering University, in the top ten rankers, you will find at least 5 are from the backward classes! Unbelievable, isn\'t it? But, that’s a fact. So, one might argue, why reservations for them then? Because, it’s the reservations that have provided the necessary fillip for these castes to come to this stage. Let’s also not forget the architect of our constitution, BR Ambedkar or the former president KR Narayan!
 
 BTW, what talent are we speaking - the regurgitation or reproduction of digested knowledge from the books in the form of various entrance exams which rely more on your memory skills rather than deep insights? Even a monkey will do that if properly trained! What about the talent and skills involved in carving most intricate designs in stone, wood, gold, iron, weaving the beautiful silk saris or any clothes, tanning, building beautiful monuments or just the regular buildings where we live? Do I have to spell out the castes of all the people involved in these professions? FYI, they are all from weaker sections.
 
 Arch, you have mentioned \"Let them have their own set of achievements and live their lives with dignity\" What dignity are we speaking of here. We are not paying for the sins of our fore fathers. We are paying for our sins only and we will continue to do so for at least 100 more years going by the number of atrocities committed against these weaker sections. We are sitting in our cool comforts and talking about discrimination in jobs or having \"some ***hole to be our boss\". Why don\'t anyone of you is realizing that this ***hole of boss could be someone from the forward caste too who might have acquired this position through money or power or both. This is the fact in more than 90% of cases. Take our own Secretariat, what is the caste of most of secretaries and which person\'s file is moved first? Those belonging to Kammas. It started from NTR\'s time and is still continuing. If it is Congress, then it is Reddy culture. Everyone knows, if you have this Reddy tag, your work is done promptly. I am sure every one of you might have been to a village at least once. Aren\'t the neighbourhoods of the upper castes and lower castes totally separate even now? I have been to several NSS camps - we were forced to conduct camps separately \"for them\". Discrimination in jobs and education! Damn with it! People are discriminated against simple needs like using water or place of prayer!
 
 Arch, assuming that the story of this lady guilty of holding a position undeserving is true, I am sure she would never even imagine in her wildest dreams that what she confided with you in good faith would be reproduced on a discussion board. Well, God forbid, but if her subordinates or your common relatives read this or even if she reads it - none of it is going to help her.
 
 Isn\'t it perplexing that all these cases of talented gems always happen to come from FCs! Wow! My friend Akki (a practising surgeon here - And he is just as efficient as any other American surgeons) is smiling away reading over my shoulder. BTW, digest it guys, he belongs to ST (a lambada thanda from Adilabad - he insists on adding that and he also says, he is not having any guilty pangs - imaginary or real). You might say, there are exceptions. I am really proud of this guy because he does whatever he can if anyone from his village or caste needs some guidance or help to come over here. This is a perfect case of Reservation Policy not going waste.
 
 Atul did raise a very valid point. Reservations get them seats but to get out they have to pass. They don\'t have any reservations then. And once they pass that\'s what matters. Whether you are Doctor or Engineer is governed by your marks in MBBS and Eng Exams (NO Reservations come into picture at all here) and not by your EAMCET rank. I am surprised at the naivety that you guys are giving so much importance to these bloody EAMCET and other entrance exam ranks. Do these all top rankers continue their “top” performance in the 5/4 year Med/Eng results? Hardly any! In fact, there was an independent research a couple of years ago regarding the performance of the top EAMCET rankers. Surprisingly, most of them didn’t even finish their degree in the prescribed 4/5/ year period. Don\'t you all know how these ranks are achieved? So, for God\'s sake, don\'t ever say talent didn\'t get recognized. Its not talent; it doesn\'t even qualify as hard-work; It’s plain drudgery! A very sad fact afflicting out education system!
 
 In September 2001 a delegation from India attended the United Nations Conference on Racism in Durban, South Africa. It was not to condemn Western countries but to condemn India and its treatment of its weaker sections. The then Chairman of India National Human Rights Commission thought the plight of one-sixth of India’s population was worthy of inclusion in the conference agenda. Not surprisingly, the Indian government did not agree stating that raising the issue would equate “casteism with racism, which makes India a racist country, which we are not???!!!!
 
 Lastly, quoting individual incidents is an effective way of getting attention. But, for every single so called \"oppression of talented upper caste citizens\", I can quote at least 5 cases of oppression of dalits. Open a newspaper you will find at least one case everyday of discrimination based on caste and an atrocity committed against a dalit. And most shamefully these happen in the cities too. I have been personal witness to many cases in Hyderabad, where the landlord refused to rent the room if you happen to be a Muslim/Christian or SC/ST and of course, bachelors (that\'s a different story). Agreed, the talented get frustrated very soon in India. But is the reservation alone the cause? NO. It’s the corruption. Reservations are lesser evil. The day there isn’t a single atrocity committed in the name of caste, that’s the day we can say that the reservation policy can be done away with. Till then we have no other choice but to pay for the sins our brethren are still committing.

by **Atul** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 7:29 pm

hi Anil, that was really good,i was unseccessfully trying to explain Arch and others about the wrong notion they have regarding the reservations. It was very informative reading about the genomes etc. by the way do u happpen to be a doctor. Also, i felt it wont be good to raise the issue of kammas and reddys and the power they enjoy not just in the villages but also in the city. I hope this would help Arch to understand what we are trying to say.

by **Arch** » Fri Jul 18, 2003 8:22 pm

Whao ! Anil ! but.. firstly, welcome to this board too. so here is one of those subjects where we seem to differ, the reservations.and whoa ! again !! unabashed, blatant bashing !?? Now, you took sides based on caste,sir !! I did not ! I was speaking about just the \'reservations\' based on caste and sex and performance in certain other areas as sports/NCC etc. Foremost I never said anywhere that all the FC\'s are the most intelligent and the rest are dumbos ! I put forth certain situations where a \'poor\' FC family got a raw deal as against my family member who thinks and undergoes the \'feeling of guilt\' of having gotten a job for a sheer \'reason of belonging to a certain community\', Right? I gave two different situations and based on those I built up my thought process on this board and I am putting it forth.. !!! The \'we (FC\'s)are the best to we have been the victims(the rest..meaning SC/ST/BC/Women/NCC/Sports/Etc)\' card is played all along. I never professed that it is right !! I had been saying all along on this board that reservations by themselves are not right, period. Just because certain part of the society (FC\'s) made some dreadful mistakes in the past twds another part of the society (the untouchables) does not mean we have to perpetuate it further on the present generation of either of the parts of the society. You allow us, those who suffered in olden times or those of us who are suffering now,in the name of caste, to gather respect and live with dignity and let us prove it to ourselves that we are normal human beings, Anil !! Do not over-sympathise. That is not healthy for anybody. shall continue later during the day..

by **Arch** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 2:34 am

Anil, foremost,your conclusion that every FC is brilliant and the rest are dumbos is your conclusion, by your choice. I have not professed so. Based on this conclusion of yours, you are bashing away all the FC\'s at your will !! exactly what you are professing us not to do to the rest of the classes !! Quite incensed, huh ? wow ! well, anyways..Yes, I agree with you here that its the environment that definitely makes a difference. As for the genes that may matter, U r the doc here,U may not be the genealogist, but a pediatrician is better than a layman at medicine like me, right? If you were\'nt so subjective while reading this board, you would have noticed that I have opined somewhere that we should approach the children at an early age, be it from FC\'s or any other class ! to give the right environmnet (nope, i do not mean communism) where they learn to make the right choices from an early age.. maybe a community pre-school ? Next, you said that we are paying for our sins now, and not our fore-fathers. OK. I have not sinned against any of these oppressed classes ! I know of lots of people too who have not sinned against them, including the oppressed classes themselves ! then why shud I or so many of us, be paying for somebody else\'s sins, Anil ?!! why for the next 100 years?!!!! Arent you speaking of a certain cycle of pay-back sins that I have mentioned in one of the postings? When will it end? after 100 years? then what? where will the present FC\'s be? They had be the oppressed class of the future ? Whoa ! that\'s a BIG sin too !! There comes the cycle again. CORRECTION OF ONE WRONG SHOULD NOT BE MADE BY ANOTHER WRONG, ANIL. CORRECT IT SO, THAT THE PRESENT AND THE FUTURE DOES NOT GET EFFECTED. I can understand your anger twds the FC\'s. I have lived there in India and it is MY country too. As much as I am proud of it I am pained by all these issues too. I have been to the Secretariat and the APSEB and the whole lot of places in Hyderabad and in other places outside of AP. I know where our country stands on these issues and please, do not underestimate anybody\'s anguish over these matters. But it is a separate matter altogether. we are discussing something else on this board, right? As per the question that you have raised about my family member, No, Anil, I do not think that I have put forth any such information which will give either her or any of her subordinates an inkling that it could be she. So, the faith-based confession has not been mis-utilised here to slander her but to let the rest of us know (as I did when she told me) that misplaced compassion is as dangerous as lack of compassion. I do not believe that I have to produce any material facts for any of you to accept this incident as a fact. The choice is yours to accept it at its face value, if not now, I DO KNOW that several of you will accept the impact of the incident it had on me, as you too mature. Incidentally, My family is a huge one, multi cultural and multi caste.. and hey, Akki ! how do you do? That definetely must have been a very hard work to be where ever you are, against all odds, congrats and keep it up. good that you do not have any guilty pangs and instead you are using your education and your placement to help others from your caste and your village and not just yourself and your family. Yes, a perfect case of the RP not going waste, Anil. Finally, individual incidents make the whole, for me, atleast. I yearn to learn of such life-long-learning-lessons from which I can apply to myself whenever I need to let go of any issue which could be hurting me. I get back on my feet with rejuvenated energies to look at life with a whole new perception. My such sources of energies are generally biographies, fiction, good thot provoking movies and yes ! ofcourse, day to day lives of my family, friends and acquaintances. Atul, I hope I answered you too :-)

by **Ramesh** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 1:23 pm

Hey
 its pretty clear that today\'s reservation policy is basically a vote bank policy and not meant for the real welfare of the society as a whole. proper attention was not given to the standards needed to b maintained while reviewing or redesigning them, though their introduction was made with good intentions. i think with these kind of policies its going to lead nowhere. irrespective of how many seats the SCs/STs get, they will always demand more if a chance is given. a proper legislation is needed so that the dirty politicians can\'t play with the careers and lives of general public.

by b. » Sat Jul 19, 2003 3:12 pm

Hi Anil, man!! thanks for your timely response; frankly I am not well aware of these issues but somehow I was getting the feeling that this higher caste thing does not look decent (doesn\'t make sense) in a democratic nation. and I was amused at the way the producer was trying to identify or match the FCs to the whites of america. it is amazing at the same time sad and yet funny how people get into superiority menatlity. what happened to human dignity and stuff like that.!!

by **Ramesh.** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 5:38 pm

Mr.Anil,
 There is no obstruction if u want to practive weaving or carving of stones. One who is expert in carving can do excellently in academics; this is ur perception. come out of such baseless arguments. What did KR Narayanan do for the country; tell me. anything solid? no. he just sat on the president chair for his term. regarding Ambedkar, his ideas were good but the implementation is not proper. and y is that for SCs/Sts only Ambedkar is visible and none of Ganghiji/Nehru/Patel/etc. These people cared for all the people; not any caste in particular. That shows ur narrow mindedness.
 Leave about Eamcet. Is there any need for reservations in the toughest competitive exams like IIT? Now dont say that its necessary for uplift of some people bla bla..... U have to maintain standards at any cost. U can help them to score well but reservation is in no way going to help the cause of the society. it will only degrade the standards. after all u have to show ur talent to come up in life. for how long do u want to rely on these \"charities\".

by **Raghava** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 5:51 pm

I think there is an urgent need to provide reservations to some of the backward people belonging to the forward castes. they r not being taken care of. at the same time those who r in the SC/ST list but r good in terms of financial conditions have to be removed from the list.

by **Arch** » Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:01 pm

I guess some of us have reached the stage of compassion -fatigue, and some of us feel the need to validate and justify for \'being\'.

by **Atul** » Sun Jul 20, 2003 8:22 am

Now i feel like writing something in reply to what ramesh, etc have said but whats the use, inturn someone else will write something critising and repeating the same thing in different words... and what will the conclusion be, i mean i am sure no one seems to be in a mood to change their opinion then whats the point discussing it. i guess what ever is to be said has alreeady been told by both the parties and any new comers are requested to read the whole thing thoroughly.

by **Atul** » Sun Jul 20, 2003 8:24 am

One more thing I totally agree with what Raghava has said!!!

Who is online