Kufr-Kafir

[Mayavi Morpheus]

You did not have one anyway.

You need to be clear in mind without any religious leanings to understand what other person is saying.

You are annoyed at being called a kafir, which is understandable. But please do not think that you can win an argment by quoting out-of-context.

As I said n times already, the actual term doesnt annoy me. Its the treatment that a kafir deserves at the hands of a believer that annoys me. now before you say that I misunderstood quran, I would like to remind you that there may be muslims who also misunderstand the same verses like I did. and then what?

If you are really genuinely curious, me suggests that you get a good translation of the Quran and Bible, and start reading.

I find this funny sherry. I am quoting from authorized Quran translation. It is actually translated by three people (each verse is translated by three people) and all three are eminent Islamic scholars.



Now for misunderstanding or misquoting, why dont you try to explain it in context. All I see is that you guys are evading answering my questions and concentrating on irrelevant points. Tell me why i am wrong instead of a generalized statement that my quotes are out of context.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Sherry, this is the one I am quoting from:



http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/SURAI.HTM



^^ That is just Yusaf Ali. the one I am quoting compares Yusuf Ali;s translation with Pickthal and Shakirs translations.

[Sharjeel]

You did not have one anyway.

You need to be clear in mind without any religious leanings to understand what other person is saying.

I am clear in my mind without any religious leanings, and i cannot find any point in your POV.

You are annoyed at being called a kafir, which is understandable. But please do not think that you can win an argment by quoting out-of-context.

As I said n times already, the actual term doesnt annoy me. Its the treatment that a kafir deserves at the hands of a believer that annoys me. now before you say that I misunderstood quran, I would like to remind you that there may be muslims who also misunderstand the same verses like I did. and then what?

That is not possible, because any muslim however naive would understand the context in which the verse exists, and would also read the whole chapter.

If you are really genuinely curious, me suggests that you get a good translation of the Quran and Bible, and start reading.

I find this funny sherry. I am quoting from authorized Quran translation. It is actually translated by three people (each verse is translated by three people) and all three are eminent Islamic scholars.

Now for misunderstanding or misquoting, why dont you try to explain it in context. All I see is that you guys are evading answering my questions and concentrating on irrelevant points. Tell me why i am wrong instead of a generalized statement that my quotes are out of context.

It is hard for me to even start to explain the verses to an audience whi is just bent on slinging mud at each other, like Xeno.



These discussions take time, and any knowledgeable person would not like to participate in a discussion which has been degraded as much as this thread.

[CtrlAltDel]

thankfully the mods deleted that one....



y'know....the debates were going well till Xeno jumped into the scene. the way he was attacking hinduism with nonsense since few days, it was the respect i have for my close muslim friends that prevented me from quoting from various anti-islamic sites...



i believe quoting from some anti site is not ethical or right....and such sites are available to defame all religions.



this is one sad day for the DB...

[Mayavi Morpheus]

That is not possible, because any muslim however naive would understand the context in which the verse exists, and would also read the whole chapter.

Arent there muslims who twisted Quraan to justify terrorrism? Teh Alqaeda, the british bombers etc.? It doesnt matter whether quran meant it or not, but thats the way they understood it, and then there are those who supported such interpretation. YOu cannot possibly tell everyone not to itnerpret quran that way now, can you? Islam doesnt have a single authority like pope.

It is hard for me to even start to explain the verses to an audience whi is just bent on slinging mud at each other, like Xeno.

Questioning religion is not same as mudslinging. If you think of it that way, you shldnt be participating in a discussion.

Anyway, If I remember right, you are a strong believer in sharia, but when I posed a question, you couldnt answer. You were not an authority on sharia, yet it didnt stop you from firmly believing in that system. You lacked thorough understanding and solely depended on blind faith.

These discussions take time, and any knowledgeable person would not like to participate in a discussion which has been degraded as much as this thread.

I thought it was going well until people started mudslinging in order to avoid answering. I directed one verse to you which I thought didnt need to be quoted in any context at all. Seems you have ignored it.





No offence sherry, but calling me ignorant doesnt solve any problems.

[DQ]

thankfully the mods deleted that one....

y'know....the debates were going well till Xeno jumped into the scene. the way he was attacking hinduism with nonsense since few days, it was the respect i have for my close muslim friends that prevented me from quoting from various anti-islamic sites...

i believe quoting from some anti site is not ethical or right....and such sites are available to defame all religions.

this is one sad day for the DB...

That is where I differ CAD.

Xeno and MM are the coins of the same side, the language and tonality used by Xeno is the same MM purports.

Please don't come back with show one example. (But if you do need one scroll to the first page of this very thread.)

Personal attacks and mud slinging are acts of the defenseless.

To MM - > I again suggest you scroll back and read this thread. You chose to bring up Quote "Quran" for something you believe. What the other members said was just read one verse before the one you are quoting. And a simple question to you.

- Are you among those disbelievers who has plotted to Kill Muhammed, expel the Muslims, broken the basic treaty of co existance.

For your short lived memory let me requote

The unbelievers planned to imprison, murder or expel you (Muhammad) from your city. They make evil plans but God too plans and God's plans are the best (8:30).

[Mayavi Morpheus]

I am done arguing with you DQ. Nothing good ever comes out of it. If I quote one verse before that, you will ask me to quote entire chapter and then when I do that you will ask me to quote another chapter. Its never gonna end.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Xeno and MM are the coins of the same side, the language and tonality used by Xeno is the same MM purports.

How different are you from Xeno? He posts it and you gleefully support him. Dont flatter yoursleves or your ilk by comparing to me. If I choose to go down xenos path, all I ever have to do is type in prophet muhammed in google. There is no dearth of hate literature on the www.

[DQ]

I am done arguing with you DQ. Nothing good ever comes out of it. If I quote one verse before that, you will ask me to quote entire chapter and then when I do that you will ask me to quote another chapter. Its never gonna end.

You answer your Query. If you did not know Quran answers it self.

Study it in full before you spread your Slander.

How terrible is the example of those who have rejected Our revelations and have done injustice only to themselves! (7:177).

Those whom God has guided have the true guidance, but those whom He has caused to go astray are certainly lost. (7:178)

We have destined many men and jinn for hell. They have hearts but do not understand, eyes but do not see. They have ears but do not hear. They are worse than lost cattle. These are the heedless ones. (7:179)

[Mayavi Morpheus]

You answer your Query. If you did not know Quran answers it self.

Study it in full before you spread your Slander.

and then what? convert to understand it fully?

[DQ]

Xeno and MM are the coins of the same side, the language and tonality used by Xeno is the same MM purports.

How different are you from Xeno? He posts it and you gleefully support him. Dont flatter yoursleves or your ilk by comparing to me. If I choose to go down xenos path, all I ever have to do is type in prophet muhammed in google. There is no dearth of hate literature on the www.

That does not make you any different.

Well as I said you can google or whatever, its makes no difference.

Some of your attributes that you have already accepted in this thread

MM has Already declared.

1. He is a Non Believer.
2. Hates Muslims.
3. Is a Liar.
4. Posts have also proved that he is foul mouthed.
5. Is a Slanderer.
6. Is a Mischeif monger.
7. Aiming to become a blasphamer
Lets see what else is exposed

Woe to every slanderer and backbiter (104:1)

who collects and hordes wealth, (2)

thinking that his property will make him live forever (3).

By no means! They will be thrown into hutamah (4).

Would that you knew what hutamah is! (5).

It is a fierce fire created by God (6)

to penetrate into the hearts(7).

It will engulf them (8).

in its long columns of flames (9).

[DQ]

You answer your Query. If you did not know Quran answers it self.

Study it in full before you spread your Slander.

and then what? convert to understand it fully?

Upto you.

(Muhammad), tell the disbelievers, (109:1)

"I do not worship what you worship, (2)

nor do you worship what I worship (3)

I have not been worshipping what you worshipped, (4)

nor will you worship what I shall worship (5).

You follow your religion and I follow mine (6).

[Sharjeel]

That is not possible, because any muslim however naive would understand the context in which the verse exists, and would also read the whole chapter.

Arent there muslims who twisted Quraan to justify terrorrism? Teh Alqaeda, the british bombers etc.? It doesnt matter whether quran meant it or not, but thats the way they understood it, and then there are those who supported such interpretation. YOu cannot possibly tell everyone not to itnerpret quran that way now, can you? Islam doesnt have a single authority like pope.

You are talking about individual interpreation, and that too of a terrorist. A terrorist/extremist act is just, it cannot be explained by any verse in any holy book. As far as Quran being used as an explanation for terrorist acts, let me give you the following quotes from the Prophets life:

On the authority of Abu Hurairah, who said : a man said to the Prophet (saw)"Counsel me". He said : "Do not become angry". The man repeated [his request] several times, and he said: "Do not become angry ".

The major sins are associating other objects of worship with God, disobedience to parents, murder, and deliberate perjury.

The man who is most hateful to God is the one who quarrels and disputes most.

Hundreds more where these came from. If any terrorist focuses on the quotes and verses which speak even slightly of fighting back against injustice, and uses them as an excuse to satiate his/their own genocidal tendencies, the quran or any other holy book should not nbe held responsible.

It is hard for me to even start to explain the verses to an audience whi is just bent on slinging mud at each other, like Xeno.

Questioning religion is not same as mudslinging. If you think of it that way, you shldnt be participating in a discussion.

Anyway, If I remember right, you are a strong believer in sharia, but when I posed a question, you couldnt answer. You were not an authority on sharia, yet it didnt stop you from firmly believing in that system. You lacked thorough understanding and solely depended on blind faith.

If you read what i wrote, i had directed that mud slinging comment at Xeno.

Me had asked for a day to understand the subject fully in the light of an outsider like you, and not because i did not have answers to your query. As opposed to many people, me takes my words seriously.

As for my belief in Sharia, maybe there are a thousand nuances of which i am not aware, but since most of Islams principles agree with me, it is natural for me to accept that part of sharia which i do not understand.

These discussions take time, and any knowledgeable person would not like to participate in a discussion which has been degraded as much as this thread.

I thought it was going well until people started mudslinging in order to avoid answering. I directed one verse to you which I thought didnt need to be quoted in any context at all. Seems you have ignored it.

No offence sherry, but calling me ignorant doesnt solve any problems.

I am not calling you ignorant, never did. I just want you to have a better understanding of your question yourself before you step forward to ask it.



I might have started explaining the verse you asked about, and then someone might have just come up with an equally out-of-context quote requiring me another eternity to explain.



I already posted a full and complete chapter from the quran which speaks against conversion or any act of anger against the kuffaar. The quote you gave was a smaall verse out of a very large chapter, which makes it out-of-context in this case.

[Betty]

..there are a variety of ppl over here comming from diff religions ,caste..wht 1 talks can hurt the other's sentiments..

Very true.

i believe quoting from some anti site is not ethical or right....and such sites are available to defame all religions.

Agree with you there.



The posts are slowly becoming personal attacks, and the whole atmosphere is getting yucky.

[Sharjeel]

The posts are slowly becoming personal attacks, and the whole atmosphere is getting yucky.

Thanks Betty! This thread was going out of hand now....

[DQ]

Though this debate has been vilified from the discussion of Kufr and Kafir to a "self imposed strong belief" of some people that Quran, Islam and the Muslim World is all about violence.

A perception that probably is embedded due to a strong reliance on doctored text of history and the obsessive selective nature of viewing at things.



I will continue to describe what is Kafir and Kufr but before dwelling into that, though aptly clarified I would still endeavour to drive sense into the exceptions raised about verses in Quran and using them as a tool to taint and maim.



Conditonal and Unconditional Commands



This term is a very important one, and I wish to explain it to you, for otherwise it will be difficult for you to grasp the full meaning of the verse under discussion. Any command (even a human command) can be given in one place with no conditions, and then again in another situation with a condition attached. In such a case, we immediately realize that whoever issued that command, introduced that law, meant the same thing in both instances. Now, having realized this, what are we to do? Are we to adhere to the unconditional command and assume that the conditional was given for that special instance? Or should we interpret the unconditional as the conditional which means adhering to the conditional?



Let me cite a simple example. On two separate occasions, for instance, we are given a command by someone having the authority to do so and whose commands we respect. On one occasion, we are told that we must respect such and such person, which is an unconditional command. In another he commands us to do the same thing, saying that we must respect that person if he does such and such a thing, like taking part in our meeting. The second time the command contains an "if." The command is now conditional. The person giving the command did not simply state that such and such a person is to be respected. The first command had no condition; we were simply told to respect him, and assuming we had ears and heard this command. it would have meant to us that we were to respect that person whether he came to the meeting or whether he was too lazy to bother. But when we hear the other command, we understand that we are to respect the person provided he comes to the meeting, and, if he refrains from doing so, we are not to respect him.



The ulema say that the rule requires us to interpret the unconditional as the conditional, meaning that we must assume the aim of the unconditional to be exactly that of the conditional.



Now, among the unconditional and conditional verses of the Quran pertaining to jihad, is one which we have seen:



«Fight ye those who have not faith in God, nor in the hereafter and (who) forbid not what God and His Prophet have forbidden»



In another verse, we are told:



«Fight in the way of God those who fight you» (2:190).



What are the meanings of these verses?

Do they mean that we must fight these people regardless of whether they are about to attack us?

Is the command unconditional so that we must fight them whether they intend or not to attack us, whether they are guilty of aggression or not?



There are two possible views.

- One is that the command remains unconditional. "The People of the Book are not Muslims, so we are allowed to fight them. We are allowed to fight the non-Muslims until we subdue them. If they are not Muslims and not People of the Book, we should fight them until either they become Muslims or we kill them. If they are People of the Book, we should fight them until they become Muslims or, if they do not become Muslims, until they pay us tribute - such is the opinion of those who say that the verse remains unconditional.



The other view, however; holds that the unconditional must be interpreted as the conditional.

Someone with this view would say that the other Quranic verses bring us the conditions for the legitimacy of jihad, we realize that the true meaning of the verses is not unconditional at all. What, then, are the conditions for the legality of jihad? Amongst them, for example, are the following:



that the other side intends to attack us;

or that it creates a barrier against the call of Islam, meaning that it negates the freedom of that call and becomes an obstacle to its diffusion, while Islam says that those barriers are to be removed.

Or, likewise, in the

case of a people subject to the oppression and tyranny of a group from amongst themselves, Islam says that we must fight those tyrants so as to deliver the oppressed from the claws of tyranny. This has been expressed in the Quran thus:



«Why is it that you do not fight in the way of God and the way of the deprived (mustazafin)?» (4:75)



Why is it that we do not fight for God and for the men, women and children who are subject to torture and tyranny?

[Mayavi Morpheus]

The ulema say that the rule requires us to interpret the unconditional as the conditional, meaning that we must assume the aim of the unconditional to be exactly that of the conditional.

As I udnerstand it, Ulema is a group of religious scholars. Is it a global body? Do all ulemas interpret islam the same way as they do in India?

In short, do all ulemas require the unconditional ayat's to be interpreted as conditional ayats?

You mentioned that the "ulema say that the RULE requires...". Is this another ayat in the quran?



I will proceed to reply to the verses on jihad, kufr, kafir after you answer this question.

[DQ]

The ulema say that the rule requires us to interpret the unconditional as the conditional, meaning that we must assume the aim of the unconditional to be exactly that of the conditional.

As I udnerstand it, Ulema is a group of religious scholars. Is it a global body? Do all ulemas interpret islam the same way as they do in India?
In short, do all ulemas require the unconditional ayat's to be interpreted as conditional ayats?
You mentioned that the "ulema say that the RULE requires...". Is this another ayat in the quran?

I will proceed to reply to the verses on jihad, kufr, kafir after you answer this question.

A debate on Ulema needs another place and another day.

I do not intend to indulge in explaining to you what Hauza e Ilmiyah is etc

etc.

The main factor is to explain about conditional and unconditional commands, I guess its too much to expect to read the full post.

How naive of me, when experts of Quran can be ignored,how do I expect that the full post is read comprehended and queries raised.



Theres this "zoo theory" that I read about, you go clicking images of all that amazes, fasinates you in a zoo tending to ignore the whole concept of habitat and the enviorns there.

"Ulema" "Mullah" bang let me stop reading and go bang bang with my baja.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Gee... What a creep.

[CtrlAltDel]

a disclaimer: i read yr post and understood wht u were saying





mayavi's question was also direct. answer it. he wants to know if all the ulema in the world interpret the "conditional" and "unconditional" in the same way?



let me give u a recent example. in Imrana's unfortunate case the Deobandi ulemas would definitely quote chapters and verses in support of their interpretation: that Quran says that her marriage is dissolved because she was raped by her father in law.



are they right or wrong? who shud decide that? and whose words have to be followed by the community?



similarly, consider the following decisions taken by Islamic religious figures:



1) last week Saudi clerics reinforced the ban on women driving, saying it is unislamic. many other muslim countries have no problems with their women drving. who is right or wrong?



2) the Taliban demolished the Bamiyan Buddha statues stating Islamic law. on the other hand Egypt, Iran, Jordan, Morocco etc preserve their heritage, including idols and statues. who is more islamic?



3) pictoral representation is banned n islam and some sections of muslim clerics had also protested against photo election ID cards in India. but at the same time they get happily photographed for getting a passport. who is right and wrong here?



4) the Taliban (again!) banned sports where men wear shorts but other islamic countries have no problem. again..who is more Islamic?



i can go on and on but i wil stop here.



now about others quoting "out of context". i agree it could happen. but why does it happen? incidents like i have quoted above and terrorists quoting scriptures to prove their point does paint Islam as a barbaric and backward faith. howerver loud one quotes entire chapters and passages, sensationalism has the loudest voice. and this is what the non-muslim world hears. the explanations of the moderates who fully understand the context is considered a weak way to coverup and justify the acts. this is a sad reality.



now u tell me what is the solution? if u tell that all non-muslims have to read and understand quran, its not going to happen. even ppl who do so might pick selective verses to justify the allegations (like the terrorists and regressive ulema does).

[DQ]

a disclaimer: i read yr post and understood wht u were saying

Another disclaimer : All that I have ignored, lets discuss that in "Walled off" or start another thread.



Simple "Yes" or "NO": Did you understand what a Conditional and Unconditional command is ?

[CtrlAltDel]

Another disclaimer : All that I have ignored, lets discuss that in "Walled off" or start another thread.

Simple "Yes" or "NO": Did you understand what a Conditional and Unconditional command is ?

no...u answer me first. my post is related to "conditional" and "unconditional" interpretation by various people. dont avoid answering uncomfy questions. u are free to take it to another thread if u wish.

[DQ]

Another disclaimer : All that I have ignored, lets discuss that in "Walled off" or start another thread.

Simple "Yes" or "NO": Did you understand what a Conditional and Unconditional command is ?

no...u answer me first. my post is related to "conditional" and "unconditional" interpretation by various people. dont avoid answering uncomfy questions. u are free to take it to another thread if u wish.

Ok your query highlights that you have not read my Post in full.



If you had read it in full

Comprehended it instead of comming up with and defense for MM it would have been worth while, let me take the effort again.



There are two possible views.

- One is that the command remains unconditional. "The People of the Book are not Muslims, so we are allowed to fight them. We are allowed to fight the non-Muslims until we subdue them. If they are not Muslims and not People of the Book, we should fight them until either they become Muslims or we kill them. If they are People of the Book, we should fight them until they become Muslims or, if they do not become Muslims, until they pay us tribute - such is the opinion of those who say that the verse remains unconditional.



The other view, however; holds that the unconditional must be interpreted as the conditional.

Someone with this view would say that the other Quranic verses bring us the conditions for the legitimacy of jihad, we realize that the true meaning of the verses is not unconditional at all. What, then, are the conditions for the legality of jihad? Amongst them, for example, are the following:

[CtrlAltDel]

u are again explaining the syntax of "conditional" and "unconditional" which dont answer my question...



have u actually read what i posted? i thot it was straight forward



i quoted examples of various interpretations of Quran as examples and asked u who decides which interpretation is correct.



i also explained why nonmuslims more often than not quote out of context.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

:roll:

u are again explaining the syntax of "conditional" and "unconditional" which dont answer my question...

thats called "bains ke saamne baasuri bajana" cad.

You are not allowed to question religion but accept it as the divine truth - You never question word of god.