Economic Growth Alone Can Solve The Crisis Of The Poor

[Mayavi Morpheus]

So u re not sure?

How long should I wait? The biharis have waited for 15 years hoping for a change

[Habitual Perfectionist]

I'm very sure about what I'm saying. I just wasn't in the mood for an argument then.



You say that Kullhars will lead to an ecological disaster. FYI, Kullhars are made of clay, which is bio-degradable, unlike plastic cups used earlier. I don't see where the threat to the ecology comes from.



You say that sudden raids will not improve passenger safety. Damn sure it will. Two or three employees suspended and they'll all be on their toes.



Populist policies? It may seem very utopian, but after a long time, there is a railway budget which really looks at the issues of a major chunk of people travelling by railways (call it populist but never forget that it is the poor class and middle class that travels by trains...not the rich class which can very well afford flights - And flights are becoming cheaper too).



Yes....generation of funds will be an issue but go back to the second point. Sudden raids...Ticket Collectors & Examiners will be more efficient than earlier, thus leading to a much lesser no. of people travelling ticketless.



This was the first time in years that populism was not restricted to not lowering fares. Populism is much more practical this time around.



Hence, wait-n-watch.

[Habitual Perfectionist]

And yes, I forgot to mention the enormous employment opportunity for the potter class because of the introduction of Kullhars.



You won't have to wait for long!!

[Mayavi Morpheus]

That clay kulhars are bio-degradable is a misconception and I wont blame you for that, cos even I used to think the same till I read some articles and discussions about the disadvantages of clay kulhaars which made me think.



1. Clay pot, unburnt, is bio-degradable, but a kulhaar is burnt in furnaces which makes the clay hard and hence non degradable. It will break into pieces but wont mix in soil.

Remember that archealogists have excavated 5000 year old earthen ware of Harappa and Mohenjadaro civilizations. They remained intact, buried under ground, for 5000 years. How is it better than plastic?



2. Regarding ecological problems. Where does clay come from? barren uncultivable lands? How many people own such lands? not the poor farmers who are most likely to be potters. These poor farmers dig up the top soil of their cultivable lands to make clay pots. But the top soil is the most fertile soil and once its dug, the land will not be usefull for cultivation.



3. How are these clay pots burnt? They use wood. The soot and all that wood produces is a health hazard.



4. Employment: One mans gain is another mans loss. What will happen to all those plastic companies and their workers?



5. Hygeine: How hygeinic are these clay pots? They are burnt in furnaces and are not cleaned and if you ever had tea from these kulhaars, you will know how much dust it has.



***

Just visit any of the Bihar/bengal railway stations, you will understand. You can see Kulhaar mounds.



PS: Personally I like to use clay Kulhars, hygeine be damned. Tea tastes so much better in a kulhaar.

[CtrlAltDel]

good points MM...!

[Habitual Perfectionist]

That clay kulhars are bio-degradable is a misconception and I wont blame you for that, cos even I used to think the same till I read some articles and discussions about the disadvantages of clay kulhaars which made me think.

1. Clay pot, unburnt, is bio-degradable, but a kulhaar is burnt in furnaces which makes the clay hard and hence non degradable. It will break into pieces but wont mix in soil.
Remember that archealogists have excavated 5000 year old earthen ware of Harappa and Mohenjadaro civilizations. They remained intact, buried under ground, for 5000 years. How is it better than plastic?

Its atleast non-toxic. Hot tea in a plastic cup melts part of the plastic.

2. Regarding ecological problems. Where does clay come from? barren uncultivable lands? How many people own such lands? not the poor farmers who are most likely to be potters. These poor farmers dig up the top soil of their cultivable lands to make clay pots. But the top soil is the most fertile soil and once its dug, the land will not be usefull for cultivation.

This issue can be handled too...all that is needed is a little patience. Let the new process sink in a bit.

3. How are these clay pots burnt? They use wood. The soot and all that wood produces is a health hazard.

Now you don't want me to rant on how plastic companies are endangering the system by releasing various pollutants into the ecosystem.

4. Employment: One mans gain is another mans loss. What will happen to all those plastic companies and their workers?

Plastic companies won't close down on account of loss of business from the railways. They are an organised industry and have various other avenues where they can sell their wares.

Potters, on the other hand, are an unorganised industry. The massive demand from Railways can give them a fresh lease of life and can organise the industry in a big way.

5. Hygeine: How hygeinic are these clay pots? They are burnt in furnaces and are not cleaned and if you ever had tea from these kulhaars, you will know how much dust it has.

One look at the way plastic cups are packed will rid you of this misconception. They are not as CLEAN as they are made out to be. Again, this is a minor issue and can be handled as the system evolves.

Just visit any of the Bihar/bengal railway stations, you will understand. You can see Kulhaar mounds.

Still preferred over plastic cup mounds.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Its atleast non-toxic. Hot tea in a plastic cup melts part of the plastic.

I am not aware of the type of plastic in use in India. But AFAIK, it does not melt.
I donot support plastic. How about paper? Paper cups are heat resistant, non-toxic and bio-degradable.

This issue can be handled too...all that is needed is a little patience. Let the new process sink in a bit.

Patience wont change the process. We are already cutting down forests to make space for agriculture. Many farmers dont have land for cultivation, so imagine whats gonna happen when there is an increase in demand for clay products.

Now you don't want me to rant on how plastic companies are endangering the system by releasing various pollutants into the ecosystem.

Plastic industry is mostly organised. It is INDUSTRY and has to follow certain industrial laws. You can impose pollution control laws on industry and regulate it. OTOH, Kulhar making is small, unorganised business, mostly practicied by poor farmers. How are you going to impose pollution control laws?

Potters, on the other hand, are an unorganised industry. The massive demand from Railways can give them a fresh lease of life and can organise the industry in a big way.

Precisely the reason why I am against Clay kulhaars. It is an unorganised industry and cannot be regulated, can be exploited easily, doesnt contribute to taxes and cannot be monitored. Nor is kulhaar making a great art that needs to be preserved by placing large orders. Those potters should be shown another source of employment.

Still preferred over plastic cup mounds.

Right, its peoples choice and was not forced by railway ministry.

Plastic can be crushed and recycled. Clay kulhaars cant. That is why you dont see used plastic cup mounds in sec'bad station, but you will see mountains of broken kulhaars in every station where they are used (its fun to throw a used cup on the waste pile and see how many pieces you can break it into )



The first time I visited Bihar, when I was 8, I had to drink from kulhaar at every station starting from Orissa. 10 years later, I was drinking from a plastic cup till Kharagpur and even in Kharagpur I had to search for a place where they serve in kulhaars.



Its simple economics. Plastic is mucho cheaper than Kulhaar. A simple Diwali diya costs you 50 Paise. For the mfr it may cost 10 paise, but you can buy 10 plastic cups for the same price.



Laloo's decision of force Kulhaars on rail passengers in a bad decision. Not everyone likes to drink from clay kulhaar for whatever reasons and this decision doesnt leave them with any other choice. Atleast Pranab da, defence minister, and several other ministers didnt like it and ordered that all kulhaars in parliament railway canteen should be replaced with porcelain (?). Unfortunaltely us civilians cant do anything but bear with laloos tantrums.



The other shining achievement of Laloo is chowkidaari at railway stations to catch latecomers red-handed. No doubt, it will create panic and people may come on time.

But pray tell me how's this gonna improve the ageing singal system and tracks of railways?

How does it improve passenger safety and prevent thugs from robbing and killing passengers (all in laloo land)?

How does it prevent trains derailing over old bridges ?

How does it prevent the railway protection force from throwing hawkers out of running trains?

Has he done anything positive to improve the above?

He could utilise his position as railway minister to improve railways rather than waste his time on chowkidaari harassing poor sods.

But then he is La-Loo, he wont do that as it wont give him any publicity or improve his reputation as the messiah of poor. Instead he sanctions a 1000 crore project to start a company in bihar to manufacture some useless shit 9in the name of creating employment) for the railways, which the railways can do without.

What qualifications does he have to be a railway minister? What sterling achievements does he have in his kitty to head the ailing railway sector?

[akhilis2cool]

good points MMji and HPji.

[Scorpion's Sting]

What sterling achievements does he have in his kitty to head the ailing railway sector?

Just a suggestion, but how about privatising the railway. If not the entire system then at least a part of it to see how it does. Wht abt ure thoughts on this guys?

[Mayavi Morpheus]

First problem, Railways is a huge network of tracks, trains, signal systems, bridges and stations which would cost billions of dollars and no private company would be able to buy it. Even a consortium would find it difficult to raise funds.

Second problem is that railways employs 600,000 people with equal number of pensioners and is the largest employer in the world and it would be difficult to privatise it.

Third problem is that railways is the only source of transportation for millions of Indians and is a kind of life line. Most passengers are third class passengers who can hardly afford the ticket. That is why government taxes the first class passengers and subsidise the third class passengers. If the railways is privatised, there will be only first class fare.



So railway privatisation is not a good idea.

Instead, trivial jobs like maintaince of stations, tracks etc can be outsourced to private companies.

[akhilis2cool]

isnt tht already being done? (trivial jobs being outsourced)

[Sharjeel]

I am against privatising of the railways, as it is one of the very few profit making thngs the Govt. has.

[akhilis2cool]

I am against privatising of the railways, as it is one of the very few profit making thngs the Govt. has.

railway can b made more profitable if the remove the 30% extra staff that they have on rolls.



PS: i am not sure it is making profits.

[Sharjeel]

I wont mind the excess employment, if it does not damage the company, which is why I prefer railways to stay a PSU.



They are making profit. They just show a loss in the budget of some Crores .



As far as privatising is concerned, I heard a private company statetement (Tata's?) that if they took control of Railways, they could theoritically even make passenger tikcets free, as the REAL profit for railways is in freight.

[akhilis2cool]

I wont mind the excess employment, if it does not damage the company, which is why I prefer railways to stay a PSU.

it does damage the company. 30% of 600000 comes to 180000. thats a huge no. I dont have the exact figure of the salary given to them. but it is a huge sum.

They are making profit. They just show a loss in the budget of some Crores .

chalta

[Habitual Perfectionist]

I am not aware of the type of plastic in use in India. But AFAIK, it does not melt.
I donot support plastic. How about paper? Paper cups are heat resistant, non-toxic and bio-degradable.

Paper obviously is a good choice...but then you'll again talk about trees being cut...won't you?

Patience wont change the process. We are already cutting down forests to make space for agriculture. Many farmers dont have land for cultivation, so imagine whats gonna happen when there is an increase in demand for clay products.

Going by this argument, the only choice seems to be plastic.

Plastic industry is mostly organised. It is INDUSTRY and has to follow certain industrial laws. You can impose pollution control laws on industry and regulate it. OTOH, Kulhar making is small, unorganised business, mostly practicied by poor farmers. How are you going to impose pollution control laws?

What pollution are you talking about? I don't think pottery hasany known polluting factor.

Precisely the reason why I am against Clay kulhaars. It is an unorganised industry and cannot be regulated, can be exploited easily, doesnt contribute to taxes and cannot be monitored. Nor is kulhaar making a great art that needs to be preserved by placing large orders. Those potters should be shown another source of employment.

I'm not talking of preserving the art of Kullhar making. I'm just talking of providing an en-masse employment opportunity to the potters. I'm also talking of organising an unorganised trade into a full-fledged industry, which will also contribute to the government coffers. By the way, since you talked about alternative employment, do you have any suggestions?

Laloo's decision of force Kulhaars on rail passengers in a bad decision. Not everyone likes to drink from clay kulhaar for whatever reasons and this decision doesnt leave them with any other choice. Atleast Pranab da, defence minister, and several other ministers didnt like it and ordered that all kulhaars in parliament railway canteen should be replaced with porcelain (?). Unfortunaltely us civilians cant do anything but bear with laloos tantrums.

I can show you an equal number of people who would prefer Kulhars over plastic. Does that mean that these people were bearing with the tantrums of earlier railway ministers?

Let's take it this way. Every coin has two sides to it. Something has been introduced with certain positive objectives in mind. Instead of harping on the negatives, let's look at the positives and give it a chance. We are a democracy and everything can be repealed. I've shown enough economic sense (employment to an entire class, organisation of an industry) in the decision to have tea served in Kulhars. For people who are not comfortable with them, they always have an option to carry a few plastic glasses (They don't cost much....do they?) of their own.

But pray tell me how's this gonna improve the ageing singal system and tracks of railways?

Does going to a movie rid you of a fever? No. You need to go to a doctor for that. But then, going to the movie entertains you....doesn't it? Laloo is keeping a check on errant employees..not trying to change the signals systems by these raids.

How does it improve passenger safety and prevent thugs from robbing and killing passengers (all in laloo land)?
How does it prevent trains derailing over old bridges ?
How does it prevent the railway protection force from throwing hawkers out of running trains?

Again, other things have to be implemented for that. The RPF is simply powerless today. They should be empowered more. But don't tie the raids to these issues. Please.

Has he done anything positive to improve the above?
He could utilise his position as railway minister to improve railways rather than waste his time on chowkidaari harassing poor sods.

Just because several things need to be done still, don't find wrong with what has been done. Its barely 3 months. Just give him some time.

Why don't you talk about the booking through mobiles (which has started) and booking through landlines (going to be started soon)? They are a couple of good steps.

What qualifications does he have to be a railway minister? What sterling achievements does he have in his kitty to head the ailing railway sector?

What qualifications did the earlier ministers have for the same job? As a matter of fact, what qualifications do most of the ministers have for their jobs? Why single out Laloo?

[Mayavi Morpheus]

As a matter of fact, what qualifications do most of the ministers have for their jobs? Why single out Laloo?

Its because of this:

I am Laloo the great



Most of the ministers are tainted, corrupt and what not, but they carry a sound brain over their shoulders and balance populist policies with developmental policies. Unfortunately laloo neither carries a brain over his shoulders nor is know to take any developmental decisions. Whatever he did till now were only populist decisions aimed to please the so called 'poor'. Bihar is an example of his pro-poor policies.

[DQ]

As a matter of fact, what qualifications do most of the ministers have for their jobs? Why single out Laloo?

Its because of this:
I am Laloo the great

Most of the ministers are tainted, corrupt and what not, but they carry a sound brain over their shoulders and balance populist policies with developmental policies. Unfortunately laloo neither carries a brain over his shoulders nor is know to take any developmental decisions. Whatever he did till now were only populist decisions aimed to please the so called 'poor'. Bihar is an example of his pro-poor policies.

Tainted and corrupt with "Brains" !!! Is that what India is about ?



Laloo to be blamed for the current situation in Bihar, How?



Bihar has seen the worst floods in the past decade.

If you are looking at per capita, the other districts in UP, MP are not far behind. So its not only Laloo ?



Populist policies, benefitting the poor, whats the harm there. The other politicians "with brains" are taking care of the well off.



Or do I term it this way, Laloo (though populist) has started work from the ground onwards, not building in the air ("Shining India"). may be populist but is helping 60% of Indias population.



Helping those who live below the poverty line, with no hope for the future, atleast such populist policies will help them and give them a chance to ride the other waves such as IT etc.



IT is good, but you cannot be basking in its glory while 60 % of the population (bear in mind no social security) are trying to muster a meal a day.



As HP said WAIT and WATCH. We have seen over the 50 yrs and especially the last decade 100 s of policies and their result, we can well afford to wait and watch these populist policies. After all what have we been doing waiting and watching all this while. So continue ....at least this looks at the better side

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Bihar has seen the worst floods in the past decade.

So did other states, that doesnt explain why Bihar is lagging behind other states. UP and MP are also poor, infact there are 5 states that are poor, they are BIMARU - Bihar, MP, Raj, and two other states. But they are only economically poor unlike Bihar where there is no law and order, security for business or people and worst caste crimes.

Populist policies, benefitting the poor, whats the harm there. The other politicians "with brains" are taking care of the well off.

Or do I term it this way, Laloo (though populist) has started work from the ground onwards, not building in the air ("Shining India"). may be populist but is helping 60% of Indias population.

Give a man a Fish, it will feed him for a day.

Give a man a line, it will feed him for life.

The former is a populist policy. By giving a fish I am creating an illusion that I am really helping him, but what he doesnt realise is that I am making him dependant on me forever. Everytime he is hungry, he has to beg me for fish and I would give him a fish for his vote. He always remains poor and I will use/misuse my power to charge the government 100 rs for the 10 cent fish.

The later is a sound policy, not necessarily a pro-poor policy. Everyone benefits from the later.

Populist policies seldom benefit the poor, mostly they benefit the ministers who can garner votes and the taxes the government financially.

Laloo has ruled Bihar for 10 + years. His policies only bankrupted the state and bihar is now one of the most back ward states in India with little to zero law and order. He thinks he is the champion of the back ward people, but the truth is that in Bihar the upper class people rule followed by yadavs. If he was really pro-poor, and rest of the CM's, PM's taking care of the rich, the situation should have been reverse.

Bihar is one of the richest state in India in terms of Natural resources, yet it is the most back ward state. Why?

[DQ]

Bihar has seen the worst floods in the past decade.

So did other states, that doesnt explain why Bihar is lagging behind other states. UP and MP are also poor, infact there are 5 states that are poor, they are BIMARU - Bihar, MP, Raj, and two other states. But they are only economically poor unlike Bihar where there is no law and order, security for business or people and worst caste crimes.

Populist policies, benefitting the poor, whats the harm there. The other politicians "with brains" are taking care of the well off.

Or do I term it this way, Laloo (though populist) has started work from the ground onwards, not building in the air ("Shining India"). may be populist but is helping 60% of Indias population.

Give a man a Fish, it will feed him for a day.
Give a man a line, it will feed him for life.
The former is a populist policy. By giving a fish I am creating an illusion that I am really helping him, but what he doesnt realise is that I am making him dependant on me forever. Everytime he is hungry, he has to beg me for fish and I would give him a fish for his vote. He always remains poor and I will use/misuse my power to charge the government 100 rs for the 10 cent fish.
The later is a sound policy, not necessarily a pro-poor policy. Everyone benefits from the later.
Populist policies seldom benefit the poor, mostly they benefit the ministers who can garner votes and the taxes the government financially.
Laloo has ruled Bihar for 10 + years. His policies only bankrupted the state and bihar is now one of the most back ward states in India with little to zero law and order. He thinks he is the champion of the back ward people, but the truth is that in Bihar the upper class people rule followed by yadavs. If he was really pro-poor, and rest of the CM's, PM's taking care of the rich, the situation should have been reverse.
Bihar is one of the richest state in India in terms of Natural resources, yet it is the most back ward state. Why?

My freind is that not what I had explained earlier.

Fish is what the Political scenario has been feeding the masses the past 57 yrs.

Wait and watch is this fish infact the line.



The largest rail network in the largest democracy also the largest employer, carrying approxiametly 14 million passengers a day.



- Atleast history over a 1000 yrs shows that Indians are skilled craftsmen.

- After agriculture the major source of income to the rural is pottery.

- The flood of of other utensils displaced these people.

- Until IT and technology catches up into rural India, where is the harm in using this abudant skill to generate employment and give them an oppurtunity to earn a living.



If the we continue shining the gloss of "Shining India", the vice of crime will increase in society. Cause the only opton left for these displaced will be crime.



Now if you and I accept that the Populist policy is actually addressing the problem at its root, probably we may help in doing service to the millions.



I have read you talk about Kulhars in railway stations in Bihar, that again helps the menial who can earn adaily bread by clearing that stuff, and once this cleaning and pottery gets organised we will have a other parallel industries.

[bindassbiryani]

depends on whose economic growth we are talking about. is it about removing obstacles to prosperity for one and all or letting a few get rich based on who their daddy was...

[CtrlAltDel]

depends on whose economic growth we are talking about. is it about removing obstacles to prosperity for one and all or letting a few get rich based on who their daddy was...

real developement covers both the above choices. remember that a country can prosper only when ppl, esp poor ppl get richer, not when rich become poorer...