Omar Khalidi's interview

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Completely agree with Akshay and Cad. If the muslim countries have boycotted danish products, they could have hurt denmark's economy. Its peacefuly and more effective than damaging their own property, life and reputation. Moreover, just like freedom of speech, one has freedom to choose what products to use or not use! Remember swadeshi andolan started by mahatma gandhi during raj?

[lonewolf]

Boycotting Danish goods and burning the Danish flags has had its effect on Denmark and its pro-Arab and pro-Islamic attitudes.



Denmark was the most friendly Muslim/pro-Arab European country till recently. In Danish public school cafaterias, they stopped serving pork in the menu so that Muslim students will not be offended. Their immigrant policy for Arabs, especially Palestinians, was one of the smoothest. Denmark had even refused to hold some games in Israel so that their Muslim citizens would not get offended.



Well, the cartoon riots made everything to change now. First of all, pork has been re-introduced into the school cafes in Denmark. Denmark is soon going to renew its ties with Israel, and other European countries are going to follow Denmark with this. Holding Denmark, EU and people of other religions responsible for the cartoons published originally by a Denmark newspaper wasn't a very bright move.

[blah]

I don't consider what the news paper did was wrong. But if we assume what it did is wrong and is of any consequence then it is valid that Danes be held accountable. I find it rather illogical to say Danes are not accountable for Danish news paper behavior. It is like saying pakistan should not be held accountable for what masood azhar does via jaish-e-mohammad.

After all the news paper pays annual taxes to the Danish govt (a representative of danes), and the news paper is a protectorate of the danish govt (again representative of danes).

That is complete bologna. Do the words "state-sponsor" mean anything to you guys? If it was Doordarshan of the 80s (maybe even now) or the Xinhua news agency of China we are talking about, then it makes sense to boycott the products of those countries, because those media outlets were/are controlled by the Govts. of the respective lands.



The example of JeM does not hold, because India claims that JeM is actively supported by Pak, logistically, not just politically. In that context, Pak actively supports the actions of JeM and Masood Azhar.



By extension of your logic, all of India should be held responsible for what the editors of Fullhyd do, because Fullhyd pays taxes to the AP Govt. which is part of the Republic of India and is hence a "protectorate" of the Indian Govt.



And BTW, no, the newspaper is not a "protectorate" of the Danish Govt. It is as much a free entity as any Danish Citizen.

[blah]

Completely agree with Akshay and Cad. If the muslim countries have boycotted danish products, they could have hurt denmark's economy. Its peacefuly and more effective than damaging their own property, life and reputation. Moreover, just like freedom of speech, one has freedom to choose what products to use or not use! Remember swadeshi andolan started by mahatma gandhi during raj?

Yes! everyone has the freedom to choose what products they want to use.



But if a decision to either use or boycott a product is taken at an organized level, to make a political statement, we better be careful that we are making the right political statement. If these are nations, religious communities we are talking about all the more restraint and discretion should be exercised.



Hindus in Gujarat always had the right to buy the products and services from whoever they want. But if in response to a call from RSS, the Hindus boycott goods and services from Muslims, there is nothing more obnoxious than that.



So, yes if Ram bhai wants to boycott Rahim Bhai's shop, that is freedom of choice, but if Hindus want to boycott Muslim businesses, that is religious bigotry. The parallels to boycotting Danish goods is left as an exercise to the reader.

[Akshay]

I don't consider what the news paper did was wrong. But if we assume what it did is wrong and is of any consequence then it is valid that Danes be held accountable. I find it rather illogical to say Danes are not accountable for Danish news paper behavior. It is like saying pakistan should not be held accountable for what masood azhar does via jaish-e-mohammad.

After all the news paper pays annual taxes to the Danish govt (a representative of danes), and the news paper is a protectorate of the danish govt (again representative of danes).

That is complete bologna. Do the words "state-sponsor" mean anything to you guys? If it was Doordarshan of the 80s (maybe even now) or the Xinhua news agency of China we are talking about, then it makes sense to boycott the products of those countries, because those media outlets were/are controlled by the Govts. of the respective lands.

The example of JeM does not hold, because India claims that JeM is actively supported by Pak, logistically, not just politically. In that context, Pak actively supports the actions of JeM and Masood Azhar.

Lets assume Pak govt military is not giving material support to JeM. And lets assume JeM gets funds from Arabia, and weapons from Chechenya, but publishes hate propaganda and trains suiside bombers in Pak. Assume Pak doesn't curtail JeM's activities. Lets also assume what JeM is doing is bad for India.

Then is it valid for India to demand Pakistan to close the JeM shops? Is it valid for India to hold Pak Accountable for letting JeM shops run in its territory? Is it valid for Indians to stop buying Pak goods? Or would you say doing such is a bigoted approach from Indians?

By extension of your logic, all of India should be held responsible for what the editors of Fullhyd do, because Fullhyd pays taxes to the AP Govt. which is part of the Republic of India and is hence a "protectorate" of the Indian Govt.

Ofcourse the indian govt should be held responsible for the actions of its protectorates. The question is how egregious is the action? You cant say every citizen/institution is independent in itself while taxing them and providing protection for them from external ramifications.

And BTW, no, the newspaper is not a "protectorate" of the Danish Govt. It is as much a free entity as any Danish Citizen.

So, who is the news-paper/dane accountable to? Not to India/Pakistan/Libya as far as I know. Whoever it accounts to is also responsible to account it.



And if we assume cartoons are bad and the news paper doesnt address our grievances then we approach the govt and if the govt doesnt address our grievance then we approach whoever the govt is accountable to, if still the grievance is not addressed then we do what is in our means to make them know how seriously we take our grievances. Now, violence is not what I am advocating here.



Not buying danish goods may be one such valid approach if you consider danes did not account for hurtful danish behavior.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Yes! everyone has the freedom to choose what products they want to use.

But if a decision to either use or boycott a product is taken at an organized level, to make a political statement, we better be careful that we are making the right political statement. If these are nations, religious communities we are talking about all the more restraint and discretion should be exercised.

Right or wrong to whom? Who decides what is right and what is wrong? Collective individual actions lead to organized group actions.
By saying that Muslim countries should boycott danish products, I do not mean to suggest that at the government level they should be banned. They should be rejected at the individual level as that is the best way to go.
Let me give you an example. Last year India imported Onions from pakistan mostly for consumption in maharasthra. Traders were not ready to sell them and those who were, couldn't, because the Indian consumer preferred the high quality Indian onions even if they were slightly expensive. This was only to make a point that we wont buy your goods while you continue sponsoring terrorrism on our soil.

Hindus in Gujarat always had the right to buy the products and services from whoever they want. But if in response to a call from RSS, the Hindus boycott goods and services from Muslims, there is nothing more obnoxious than that.

It may be obnoxious but it is *not* wrong as it is a peaceful boycott. No laws are being broken. I would have preferred gujaratis boycott trade with muslims in response to burning train rather than going all out and killing so many of them in 2002.They only ended up tarnishing the reputation of the community and that of the nation and in the process killed 100's of fellow Indians for no fault of theirs.

Boycotting products is the best protest because it yielded results during our independence movement when whole of India boycotted british products. Similarly, the black people of america boycotted the bus service to end the racial seggregation.

I am not trying to equate the above to causes to the boycott of muslims in gujarat, I am only pointing to the effiicacy of this method.

[DQ]

Its silence my dear nit witty scholars!!!



Instead they chose to support, well not only support press around the globe chose to reprint it, a delibrate attempt in ridiculing.



Werent these very boards once defensive, "who is linking Islam" and wnated every body to accept that its the global view. A year on European leaders support freedom of speech in relating a prophet to fallacies of an idiot.



And my scholars here come up hundreds of Miles. Ok let me rephrase my example, the poet sits hudreds of miles away and distributes your moms sizzling porn with the neighbourhood. Ah well he is hundereds of miles away lets turn a blind eye to it :-!



FYI: India was the first country in world to summon the Danish ambassdor and convey their displeasure way back in September!!!

For those who would want to propose a hundreds of mile away story!!!

[Akshay]

Its silence my dear nit witty scholars!!!

Instead they chose to support, well not only support press around the globe chose to reprint it, a delibrate attempt in ridiculing.

"they" once again.

And my scholars here come up hundreds of Miles. Ok let me rephrase my example, the poet sits hudreds of miles away and distributes your moms sizzling porn with the neighbourhood. Ah well he is hundereds of miles away lets turn a blind eye to it :-!

Should we laugh at or pity your ignorant insolence?

[quoute="dq"]
FYI: India was the first country in world to summon the Danish ambassdor and convey their displeasure way back in September!!! [/quote]

so?

[CtrlAltDel]

to those who say that economic boycott by the public is bad, i say that this is much better than burning down your own public property to teach the danes a lesson!





and abt DQ...wtf is he ranting against, using his Weapon of Poetic Destruction? no one here as said that the cartoons were ok etc. is he trying to justify the mob violence all over the world?

[HP hits back]

Just a small snippet of information that came to my notice today. Danish law has a provision for what the newspaper did (Got this info from the editorial in today's Hindu). And even if I do accept all excuses for the violent protests, which of course I won't...but still, do DQ or his ilk have any reason why the legal recourse was not taken in this case inspite of being available. Starting from Danish courts, they could have gone right upto the International Court of Justice. (Again, this would have amounted to blowing the issue out of proportions IMO, but I'm just trying to show the scope of legal redressal available).



And now some rejoinders...

1. When did God or his messengers or anything divine become so insignificant that human acts could insult them?

2. Why should the protests have become so ugly and why were people killed and property destroyed?

3. The fundamentalist angle.

[quoe="DQ"]POV to your queries, Lets start from reverse order, its not about fundamentalism.

Why has the world become one eyed.
When it comes to Muslims, their properties, their rights its all right to keep mum and expect the muslim world to show patience. Laws my dear freind stays law until rights are upheld, Austria another European nation has today Jailed "Irvin" for remarks made 10 years back.[/quote]

As Akshay put it, this is a case of absolute paranoia. Tell me...do you consider the actions and methods of J-e-M & L-e-T, Hamas and the biggie Al-Qaeda among many others as patient? And the behaviour I used to consider restricted to the fundamentalist fringe clearly shows as having spilled over to the mainstream too if the cartoon protests are to be taken as a pointer. Destruction of public property the world over for an action of a certain Danish newspaper I wouldn't have heard of in my lifetime otherwise. And the protestors were not the Hamas, Al-Qaeda or L-e-T. They were common people like you and me.

Give your thoughts an unbiased view and you'll see what I mean. And if you still consider me to be wrong, then maybe you're already part of the fundamentalistic fringe.

Why was it not considered freedom of speech ?

That was not my question. And Akshay has already said most of what I'd have said to this self-imposed rant of yours..maybe more. So I'll rest my case.

By the way, you still haven't answered two other queries of mine. The first two posted above.

Now let me answer your questions...

Does anyone know when the cartoons were first published at all?

Yeah. I came to know through this thread. But that doesn't change my view on any aspect of this issue.

Does anyone know what the head of the EU said? What other wolrd leaders said. Dont ask me do some research.

Again, something that doesn't change the essence of any of the three questions I've posted above. So, move on.

A year back it was the extremists forces, these very boards these very members came up "who said anything about Islam and Muslims its the extremists that we are worried about" And gleefully now the cartoons have made every muslim an extremist and fundamentalist right.
See how you were back strapped and cartoonishly led to this.

You have a right to your viewpoint, but don't just ignore other perspectives to issues. Now stop being a by-product of a mangy horse in blinkers mating a one-eyed mare (I would have called others a frog in a well but you're too thick skinned for that, rightly so, as mules are thicker skinned than poor frogs) and look at everything that's happening around you and not just some events with an isolated perspective. For starters, how about this?

A year back, it was the extremist forces (which still exist and have grown in their spread and power), these very boards these very members came up "who said anything about Islam and Muslims its the extremists that we are worried about" (Heck...we still are). And gleefully now the cartoons have made every muslim an extremist and fundamentalist right. (Unfortunately, its not the cartoons that did so...it was your own actions). See how you were back strapped and cartoonishly led to this. (Infact, it was an extremely fickle minded response to the cartoons that led to this).

When the globe agrees that it was in bad taste, why did they leave it to test the waters.Why was there no global condemnation ?

Because the globe didn't even know it was happening, till your protesting bretheren started burning things. And tell me, was there any need for people outside Denmark to even know about it?

Like the AP state assembly why did not other governments of the world not drop in that one liner ?

Akshay has already answered this nicely but I jus can't resist this cheapshot. You missed out on the name of Haji Farooq. He did more to the cause than "that one liner". He announced a prize of 51 cr. on the head of the islamic equivalent of a 12 headed Ravana (12 cartoonists he thinks is one).

Or it is to be taken that that the so called "free expressionist" to had a giggle at it ?

Talking of this, I remember that when we were in primary school, a lot of jokes used to do the rounds. And although I don't remember them properly, I do remember allusions to Shiva dirtying his hands with poop, Mohammed being a chai-walla and Jesus squirming on the cross because someone farted and he couldn't hold his nose. And we all laughed at all of these jokes. I don't think we were guilty of any crime there. It was just innocent kiddy banter. Lesson : The content of the joke is never bad by itself. Its the percieved intention of the source and other related overtones that make it good or bad. I guess this should make the meaning of the phrase "freedom of expression" very clear. And DQ...you need to accept that freedom of expression has always been and will always be a subjective principle. And I'd rather not get into that debate here as it would lead the discussion astray.

We Muslims do not seek violence. According to our religious beliefs, the humanity of a person remains incomplete unless he is free and we hold the conviction that according to this saying of Imam Ali we are obliged to: “Be kind to people! Because if they are not your brothers and sisters in religion, they surely are your brothers and sisters in creation."

Maybe thats why your innocent "brothers and sisters in creation" are being burned by your "brothers and sisters in religion" in Nigeria. Have you given that a thought? I named Nigeria here among the many places where violence is still existing as it is as distant, politically, geographically and socially from Denmark as it can be.

[quoe="DQ"]In a world increasingly moving toward hatred and division, wherein ideas like peace, tolerance and friendship among nations seems quite fragile, it is your duty to keep your sworn commitments that you believe in the shaping of an equal world, free of war and discrimination. We hope you prove to us that you respect us as we respect you as equal, intelligent and civilized humans. Thank you for taking the time to read this. [/quote]

The world by and large develops prejudices against a community due to some facts and some assumptions. In a healthy and mature world, such prejudices can be addressed easily by peaceful means. Dialogue, Legal recourse and peaceful protests are just some ways. It doesn't help an aggrieved party's cause to come out blazing on the streets, especially when the prejudice is about fondness for violence. In such times, it is the job of community elders to douse tempers and guide the community towards a rational response. It again doesn't help the aggrieved community's cause if these very elders are busy igniting fires by issuing fatwas. For once, why doesn't the muslim community the world over look within and do some serious thinking on whether their approach to issues related to them is the right one or not.

Instead they chose to support, well not only support press around the globe chose to reprint it, a delibrate attempt in ridiculing.

And I again fail to understand. Ridiculing whom? You? Me? Islam? Prophet Mohammed? You and me are too insignificant for the world to take up arms when we are insulted. Hell...you've been insulting me and I've been insulting you back on these boards for the good part of the last 2 years.

Now Islam? Prophet Mohammed? I again ask you. Is Islam or the legacy of Prophet Mohammed so weak that a few inconsequential cartoonists can insult it? If so, you're being unduly proud of something that's not really worth it. I've never felt that Hinduism is being insulted by images of dieties appearing on underwear or people blowing their noses with handkerchieves with shlokas printed on them.

And my scholars here come up hundreds of Miles. Ok let me rephrase my example, the poet sits hudreds of miles away and distributes your moms sizzling porn with the neighbourhood. Ah well he is hundereds of miles away lets turn a blind eye to it :-!

Now....if my mother ever indulged in the porn being distributed, I would initially cringe, but later try and focus all my energies on doing something so exemplary that the world forgets everything about my mother. But she didn't. So if there is an inconsequential poet sitting hundred miles away from my place maligning my mother, I would just let him be. I would not insult my mother's piety by giving an inconsequential idiot a place of primacy so that the enire world sees and hears what he has to show or say. And inspite of all my efforts, if he still manages to reach out to a bigger and consequential audience, my mother would not resort to doing a raunchy item number on live television. A pious lady will stay pious and 12 chattering monkeys cannot change that fact however loud they might be. Can you really fault this line of thought DQ? And mind you, for days, you've been using the phrase "poet distributing your mom's sizzling porn". Stop using it. Doesn't help in having a healthy discussion.



Blah :



When you say that boycott of Danish goods is not a justified protest against the Danish newspaper, you miss one point where the Danish government itself was partly culpable. Do not forget that the Danish government brushed the issue off when this was an offence punishable under Danish law. And even though the newspaper is a free entity, the Danish govt. is the custodian of Danish law. I'm looking at this from a very layman's perspective, so don't pick on this viewpoint through mere technicalities of legal redressal in Denmark.

[HP hits back]

Just a small snippet of information that came to my notice today. Danish law has a provision for what the newspaper did (Got this info from the editorial in today's Hindu). And even if I do accept all excuses for the violent protests, which of course I won't...but still, do DQ or his ilk have any reason why the legal recourse was not taken in this case inspite of being available. Starting from Danish courts, they could have gone right upto the International Court of Justice. (Again, this would have amounted to blowing the issue out of proportions IMO, but I'm just trying to show the scope of legal redressal available).



And now some rejoinders...

1. When did God or his messengers or anything divine become so insignificant that human acts could insult them?

2. Why should the protests have become so ugly and why were people killed and property destroyed?

3. The fundamentalist angle.

[quoe="DQ"]POV to your queries, Lets start from reverse order, its not about fundamentalism.

Why has the world become one eyed.
When it comes to Muslims, their properties, their rights its all right to keep mum and expect the muslim world to show patience. Laws my dear freind stays law until rights are upheld, Austria another European nation has today Jailed "Irvin" for remarks made 10 years back.[/quote]

As Akshay put it, this is a case of absolute paranoia. Tell me...do you consider the actions and methods of J-e-M & L-e-T, Hamas and the biggie Al-Qaeda among many others as patient? And the behaviour I used to consider restricted to the fundamentalist fringe clearly shows as having spilled over to the mainstream too if the cartoon protests are to be taken as a pointer. Destruction of public property the world over for an action of a certain Danish newspaper I wouldn't have heard of in my lifetime otherwise. And the protestors were not the Hamas, Al-Qaeda or L-e-T. They were common people like you and me.

Give your thoughts an unbiased view and you'll see what I mean. And if you still consider me to be wrong, then maybe you're already part of the fundamentalistic fringe.

Why was it not considered freedom of speech ?

That was not my question. And Akshay has already said most of what I'd have said to this self-imposed rant of yours..maybe more. So I'll rest my case.

By the way, you still haven't answered two other queries of mine. The first two posted above.

Now let me answer your questions...

Does anyone know when the cartoons were first published at all?

Yeah. I came to know through this thread. But that doesn't change my view on any aspect of this issue.

Does anyone know what the head of the EU said? What other wolrd leaders said. Dont ask me do some research.

Again, something that doesn't change the essence of any of the three questions I've posted above. So, move on.

A year back it was the extremists forces, these very boards these very members came up "who said anything about Islam and Muslims its the extremists that we are worried about" And gleefully now the cartoons have made every muslim an extremist and fundamentalist right.
See how you were back strapped and cartoonishly led to this.

You have a right to your viewpoint, but don't just ignore other perspectives to issues. Now stop being a by-product of a mangy horse in blinkers mating a one-eyed mare (I would have called others a frog in a well but you're too thick skinned for that, rightly so, as mules are thicker skinned than poor frogs) and look at everything that's happening around you and not just some events with an isolated perspective. For starters, how about this?

A year back, it was the extremist forces (which still exist and have grown in their spread and power), these very boards these very members came up "who said anything about Islam and Muslims its the extremists that we are worried about" (Heck...we still are). And gleefully now the cartoons have made every muslim an extremist and fundamentalist right. (Unfortunately, its not the cartoons that did so...it was your own actions). See how you were back strapped and cartoonishly led to this. (Infact, it was an extremely fickle minded response to the cartoons that led to this).

When the globe agrees that it was in bad taste, why did they leave it to test the waters.Why was there no global condemnation ?

Because the globe didn't even know it was happening, till your protesting bretheren started burning things. And tell me, was there any need for people outside Denmark to even know about it?

Like the AP state assembly why did not other governments of the world not drop in that one liner ?

Akshay has already answered this nicely but I jus can't resist this cheapshot. You missed out on the name of Haji Farooq. He did more to the cause than "that one liner". He announced a prize of 51 cr. on the head of the islamic equivalent of a 12 headed Ravana (12 cartoonists he thinks is one).

Or it is to be taken that that the so called "free expressionist" to had a giggle at it ?

Talking of this, I remember that when we were in primary school, a lot of jokes used to do the rounds. And although I don't remember them properly, I do remember allusions to Shiva dirtying his hands with poop, Mohammed being a chai-walla and Jesus squirming on the cross because someone farted and he couldn't hold his nose. And we all laughed at all of these jokes. I don't think we were guilty of any crime there. It was just innocent kiddy banter. Lesson : The content of the joke is never bad by itself. Its the percieved intention of the source and other related overtones that make it good or bad. I guess this should make the meaning of the phrase "freedom of expression" very clear. And DQ...you need to accept that freedom of expression has always been and will always be a subjective principle. And I'd rather not get into that debate here as it would lead the discussion astray.

We Muslims do not seek violence. According to our religious beliefs, the humanity of a person remains incomplete unless he is free and we hold the conviction that according to this saying of Imam Ali we are obliged to: “Be kind to people! Because if they are not your brothers and sisters in religion, they surely are your brothers and sisters in creation."

Maybe thats why your innocent "brothers and sisters in creation" are being burned by your "brothers and sisters in religion" in Nigeria. Have you given that a thought? I named Nigeria here among the many places where violence is still existing as it is as distant, politically, geographically and socially from Denmark as it can be.

[quoe="DQ"]In a world increasingly moving toward hatred and division, wherein ideas like peace, tolerance and friendship among nations seems quite fragile, it is your duty to keep your sworn commitments that you believe in the shaping of an equal world, free of war and discrimination. We hope you prove to us that you respect us as we respect you as equal, intelligent and civilized humans. Thank you for taking the time to read this. [/quote]

The world by and large develops prejudices against a community due to some facts and some assumptions. In a healthy and mature world, such prejudices can be addressed easily by peaceful means. Dialogue, Legal recourse and peaceful protests are just some ways. It doesn't help an aggrieved party's cause to come out blazing on the streets, especially when the prejudice is about fondness for violence. In such times, it is the job of community elders to douse tempers and guide the community towards a rational response. It again doesn't help the aggrieved community's cause if these very elders are busy igniting fires by issuing fatwas. For once, why doesn't the muslim community the world over look within and do some serious thinking on whether their approach to issues related to them is the right one or not.

Instead they chose to support, well not only support press around the globe chose to reprint it, a delibrate attempt in ridiculing.

And I again fail to understand. Ridiculing whom? You? Me? Islam? Prophet Mohammed? You and me are too insignificant for the world to take up arms when we are insulted. Hell...you've been insulting me and I've been insulting you back on these boards for the good part of the last 2 years.

Now Islam? Prophet Mohammed? I again ask you. Is Islam or the legacy of Prophet Mohammed so weak that a few inconsequential cartoonists can insult it? If so, you're being unduly proud of something that's not really worth it. I've never felt that Hinduism is being insulted by images of dieties appearing on underwear or people blowing their noses with handkerchieves with shlokas printed on them.

And my scholars here come up hundreds of Miles. Ok let me rephrase my example, the poet sits hudreds of miles away and distributes your moms sizzling porn with the neighbourhood. Ah well he is hundereds of miles away lets turn a blind eye to it :-!

Now....if my mother ever indulged in the porn being distributed, I would initially cringe, but later try and focus all my energies on doing something so exemplary that the world forgets everything about my mother. But she didn't. So if there is an inconsequential poet sitting hundred miles away from my place maligning my mother, I would just let him be. I would not insult my mother's piety by giving an inconsequential idiot a place of primacy so that the enire world sees and hears what he has to show or say. And inspite of all my efforts, if he still manages to reach out to a bigger and consequential audience, my mother would not resort to doing a raunchy item number on live television. A pious lady will stay pious and 12 chattering monkeys cannot change that fact however loud they might be. Can you really fault this line of thought DQ? And mind you, for days, you've been using the phrase "poet distributing your mom's sizzling porn". Stop using it. Doesn't help in having a healthy discussion.



Blah :



When you say that boycott of Danish goods is not a justified protest against the Danish newspaper, you miss one point where the Danish government itself was partly culpable. Do not forget that the Danish government brushed the issue off when this was an offence punishable under Danish law. And even though the newspaper is a free entity, the Danish govt. is the custodian of Danish law. I'm looking at this from a very layman's perspective, so don't pick on this viewpoint through mere technicalities of legal redressal in Denmark.

[blah]

I am not too good at quoting other people. So, I will try to consolidate my thinking which I think answers the points raised by MM and Akshay.



1. The individual/businesses/institutions are beholden to none but the laws and the constitution of the country they operate in.

2. The said laws and constitution generally uphold the universal definition of human rights (There are universally recognized charters for these like UN conventions etc.)



The topic in question is this. The Danish newpaper has exercised its right to freedom of expression. Granted, not very tasteful, but nonetheless, it is within their rights. No laws were broken. So, there is no reason for the Danish govt. to get involved. So, you want to punish the Danish economy and the Danish people for the acts of the newspaper? To me it does not make sense.



In light of my assertion 2 above, it was correct to boycott goods and services from

1. the apartheid regime of South Africa

2. from China, for their suppression of Human rights

3. from the Middle East, for their suppression of Women and yes

4. from Pakistan, for their contribution to global terrorism (turning a blind eye is a crime too)

5. from the British empire (Led by Gandhi) for their support of colonialism and suppression of the right to self rule.



Pls. note that in all these cases it is the Govt. actions that are being responded to for their absurd laws and policies. But the cold inexorable logic of the state of business today precludes a vast majority of these actions. Yeah right, like the world could go on without cheap Chinese goods and Middle Eastern Oil, freedom and ethics or not.



Also, it is considered generally good practice to boycott goods and services from companies to force them into ethical business practices.



1. One could boycott yahoo and google for their shameless submission to Chinese govt. pressure to turn over info.

2. One could boycott Halliburton for their brazen profiteering from the war.



I think it is OK to boycott American goods in response to the war (I personally was a war supporter), but it is not OK to boycott American goods because Pat Robertson said something. It is not like the US govt. under the US constitution and law could do anything to rein in Pat Robertson. It is a free country in the true sense of the word.



<b>

That said, if HPs assertion that the Danish Govt. violated Danish law by selectively not prosecuting the newspaper, then boycott could be meaningful. (Again me being a free-speecher would find Danish govt. prosecuting the newspaper loathsome though.) </b>



Coming to the question of boycotting other communities, like I said earlier, it is well within one's rights to do this. But I think it is morally reprehensible especially when targeted against a minority. What if tomorrow the Brahmins got together and decided to boycott businesses owned by a particular caste, or if the whites got together and boycotted black owned businesses. It just is not a very good formula for national and international cohesion.



Peace.

[parinda]

Your talk about police personnel being involved in mass propogation of fanatic ideals is juvenile to say the least. Yes...I agree that there have been problems...both small and big but the police is not to blame for evil designs there.

You cant blame the political bodies for the mentality of the majority of the Hindu Fundamentalist police force across all over India,yes there are couple of good officers too(which means they just did their work impartially ) ,but the majority of them stick to the Hindu fundamentalist ideology of RSS and VHP and the Bajrang DALAL , for instance challaning/ticketing people for the so called traffic violations ,a recent survey by an organization has revealed that the Hyderabad police collected 90% of the total revenue by targeting Muslims only and they were specifically asked by their top brass of Hindu fundamentalist officers to target Muslims only ,now for a fanatical Hindu definitely all the Muslims are offenders ...now that explains why I used to get ticketed for the so called violations only when I was wearing a Pathani....

[HP again]

for instance challaning/ticketing people for the so called traffic violations ,a recent survey by an organization has revealed that the Hyderabad police collected 90% of the total revenue by targeting Muslims only and they were specifically asked by their top brass of Hindu fundamentalist officers to target Muslims only ,now for a fanatical Hindu definitely all the Muslims are offenders ...now that explains why I used to get ticketed for the so called violations only when I was wearing a Pathani....

May I know which organisation this is? I'm a major in statistics and sampling and surveys have been my specialities. Now, the findings of this organisation completely contravene the simple laws of probability and statistics (I'll show how). And ever the opportunist, I'd like to make some money either coaching these people on sampling or by doing some sampling for them myself. Let me show how the survey in question falls flat scientifically.

1. I, a hindu have been booked twice (I do accept that being a natural rebel, I was breaking several traffic rules and wasn't really helping my case) in recent times, and that too heavy fines. Now, going by what the survey has to say, it doesn't add up that 90% of the collections were premiditatedly being made from muslims in a city with a hindu majority and a hindu was booked twice.

2. I don't see any bookings happening at all in muslim majority areas of the city where traffic rules are flouted by one and all. This skews the pattern bigtime against 90% of the collections coming from muslims.

As anyone with common sense can say, the survey was a complete hogwash.

Blah :

I guess you didn't read the beginning of my post. Here's the source for your reference.

Time for reason and restraint

Uttar Pradesh Haj and Minority Welfare Minister Yaqoob Quereshi went outrageously over the top — violating the law and all norms of propriety and decency — in announcing a cash reward of Rs.51 crore for the head of the `cartoonist' who drew offensive caricatures of Prophet Muhammed. Elements like Mr. Quereshi revel in scoring a succession of own goals against secular democracy and the interests of Muslims worldwide. Such `edicts' tend to reinforce the stereotyping of Muslims and to fuel Islamophobia. There is no question that the cartoons — a dozen of them published originally in the Danish right-wing newspaper, Jyllands-Posten, which has now come up with a full-scale apology, and republished in European newspapers with crass disregard for the consequences — were intended to cause hurt. The caricatures of the Prophet — one of them, as it turned out, portrayed him as a terrorist — were commissioned in order to provoke and presumably to test the limits of tolerance. It is worth noting that violence escalated only after the cartoons were deliberately reprinted on February 1. More provocation ensued in the form of a T-shirt carrying the Prophet's caricature, worn by an Italian right-wing Minister. Within India, there was little reaction until television started beaming images of protests elsewhere in the world. But by and large, despite attempts by fanatical elements to stir up trouble, Indian Muslims have been commendably restrained.

The U.P. Minister was not even well informed on the basic facts. The caricatures of the Prophet were drawn, not by a single cartoonist but by 12 of 40 cartoonists who were stupidly invited by the Danish newspaper to "draw Muhammed as they see him." The All-India Muslim Personal Law Board quickly distanced itself from the Quereshi statement, characterising it as an attempt to "incite passion" and gain "cheap publicity." This response contrasts with the unacceptable refusal of the U.P. Government to rebuke the Minister, let alone sack him. The Danish cartoons were crude, racist, and calculated to inflame. But the way to counter them was a reasoned and sustained exposure of Islamophobia and legal redress where possible. (After all, David Irving, the British historian and Nazi apologist, has just been sentenced by a Vienna court to three years in jail for exercising his `freedom of expression' to deny the Holocaust.) Writing in the Jurist, an eminent Muslim African-American law professor, Bernard K. Freamon, argues that the publishers of the cartoons are punishable under Section 266b of the Danish Penal Code. The section provides for criminal prosecution and conviction for dissemination of any communication by which a group of people is "threatened, insulted or degraded on account of their race, colour, national or ethnic origin or creed..." A counter movement, grounded in law and reason, is clearly the answer. Meanwhile, Chief Minister Mulayam Singh must make an example of Mr. Quereshi by throwing him out of his Ministry.

http://www.hindu.com/2006/02/22/stories/2006022203441000.htm



Would you still say that the Danish government and the people of Denmark are accountable, directly or indirectly for the cartoons?

[blah]

A knee jerk from me would be, since the govt. actions are in contravention of their own law, they may be culpable and hence the boycott justified.



On a more reasoned note, there are laws in several states in the USA against homosexuality and illegal cohabitation. These are probably laws drafted in the 1800s and no one really revisited them. The state does not normally take up those cases, just because the prevailing public sentiment is that it is a sheer waste of time and the resources of the Govt. are better spent elsewhere than trying to monitor the sexual behaviors of free citizens.



In such a scenario, if a state chooses to selectively prosecute only blacks or people from a particular religion, that would be cause for complaint. But if the state never takes up those cases and some organization wants Mr. ABC prosecuted in accordance with the law and wants to boycott the state products for its failure to do so, that would be unreasonable.



The Hindu is in general a very liberal newspaper, to the point of being apologist. What I would be interested in knowing is that

1. What kind of a prosecution apparatus does the Danish Govt. have?

2. How burdened are they?

3. Would the Danish Govt. consider it a priority to prosecute the producers of Life of Brian and the painters of Ganesha on toilet seats for similar charges, if not Muslims do not deserve this kid gloves treatment either?

4. Just because some law professor from some country says something does not necessarily mean that the prosecution has a watertight case. Remember, in the whole episode, I have not heard the newspapers side of the story, other than the most cursory details. So, if the prosecution has looked into the case and determined it is not worth staking their reputation because it is hard to get a conviction, that would exonerate the state.



So, to summarize, if the Danish Govt. is culpable, a boycott is justified. I would have to see more than a passing reference in a newspaper like The Hindu to be convinced of that.

[blah]

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forumy/2006/ ... hammad.php



This is the original article referenced in The Hindu Op-Ed piece.



It appears that the state has refused to prosecute the newspaper. They may have their reasons. We all know that getting a conviction even in the most obvious cases is not a guarantee. Just look at the trials of Slobodan Milosevic and Saddam Hussain, where there is overwhelming evidence against the defendants. But the law takes its own course and these trials are rife with technicalities. I would not burn the state prosecution apparatus at the stake without knowing their compulsions and analysis of the case.



Looks like, in general, the Danish courts are reasonable in their interpretation of the limitations on the Freedom of Expression as suggested in the article and they convicted someone who sent an email. So, why did the Muslim Clerics not pursue the case by themselves? Sure enough DQ and Parinda, not to mention the millions of idiots rioting on the streets, would have been eager to send them checks to help with the legal expenses. Why did they depend on the state to prosecute the newspaper? Could it be because they could not find any attorneys in Denmark that thought they did not have a viable case?



Food for thought. Civil Disobedience, boycotts and non-violent resistance, as Gandhi and MLK taught us are powerful tools against a civilized opposition. They should be used for conscientious causes.

Peace

[parinda]

1. I, a hindu have been booked twice (I do accept that being a natural rebel, I was breaking several traffic rules and wasn't really helping my case)

How is a Hindu who considers he is doing a rebellion by breaking the traffic
laws related to police officers being asked to specifically target Muslims for alleged traffic violations and being given a target to meet.

2. I don't see any bookings happening at all in muslim majority areas of the city where traffic rules are flouted by one and all. This skews the pattern bigtime against 90% of the collections coming from muslims.

goto any muslim majority area you will see Hardline fundamentalist Hindu police officers collecting money from inncoent muslims allegedly for traffic violations ,what kind of booking will make you see that its actually happening and more so than any other areas in muslim majority areas, do you mean to say that Muslim majority areas be targeted for traffic violation only for being Muslim majority areas in themselves , I support fining people for violations but what I dont support is the fining for alleged traffic violations only when you happen to be a muslim,which comes down to fining fo rbeing a Muslim, I believe this is a very reasonable opinion and would expect any reasonable Indian with out any sort of affilitaion to fundamentalist Hindu organizations like RSS VHP and Bajrang DALALs to agree with me ...

[Akshay]

I believe this is a very reasonable opinion and would expect any reasonable Indian with out any sort of affilitaion to fundamentalist Hindu organizations like RSS VHP and Bajrang DALALs to agree with me ...

Thats a funny expectation

[Mayavi Morpheus]

Going by the statistics on the traffic tickets issued to muslims, it seems that muslims of hyderabad are must unruly people who are anti-social and anti-government and do not have any respect for the land or its law.

ahhh... whats new

[CtrlAltDel]

goto any muslim majority area you will see Hardline fundamentalist Hindu police officers collecting money from inncoent muslims allegedly for traffic violations ,what kind of booking will make you see that its actually happening and more so than any other areas in muslim majority areas, do you mean to say that Muslim majority areas be targeted for traffic violation only for being Muslim majority areas in themselves , I support fining people for violations but what I dont support is the fining for alleged traffic violations only when you happen to be a muslim,which comes down to fining fo rbeing a Muslim, I believe this is a very reasonable opinion and would expect any reasonable Indian with out any sort of affilitaion to fundamentalist Hindu organizations like RSS VHP and Bajrang DALALs to agree with me ...

if u get out of your ghetto in the old city and world outside u will see how the traffic police work



yr observation seems to be in a "Muslim Majority Area" as u have quoted so if u apply yr brains, u will realise that its natural most of the offenders would be muslims.



every been to hitech city area for instance? there is always a police patrol there picking up offenders and they dont look at their clothes.



btw, FYI, the Traffic Police Commissioner of Hyderabad is one Mr.Khan, another hardline hindutva fanatic.



you seem to be suffering from the typical Persecution Complex. the ISI recruiters in the city seem to have worked hard on brainwashing you

[HP again]

A knee jerk from me would be, since the govt. actions are in contravention of their own law, they may be culpable and hence the boycott justified.

My response was not a knee-jerk though.

On a more reasoned note, there are laws in several states in the USA against homosexuality and illegal cohabitation. These are probably laws drafted in the 1800s and no one really revisited them. The state does not normally take up those cases, just because the prevailing public sentiment is that it is a sheer waste of time and the resources of the Govt. are better spent elsewhere than trying to monitor the sexual behaviors of free citizens.

The law against inciting passions on the basis of one's caste, creed, religion etc. is quite topical unlike the laws of the 19th century that you've given as examples.

In such a scenario, if a state chooses to selectively prosecute only blacks or people from a particular religion, that would be cause for complaint. But if the state never takes up those cases and some organization wants Mr. ABC prosecuted in accordance with the law and wants to boycott the state products for its failure to do so, that would be unreasonable.

I'll rephrase my stand vis-a-vis the boycotts here. Muslim organisations should have taken the initiative to take a legal recourse and failure on the part of Danish authorities to address their concerns put forth through the legal system would have been reason enough for muslims worldwide to boycott Danish goods. Damn...a little extra reason does change your viewpoint, doesn't it?

So, to summarize, if the Danish Govt. is culpable, a boycott is justified. I would have to see more than a passing reference in a newspaper like The Hindu to be convinced of that.

I see a point there.

[learned scholar]

It is non-Muslim’s common knowledge, that Muslims almost always lie to protect and glorify their Allah and Muhammad. They unashamedly state myths in public, non-Muslims would be ashamed of; without first thinking of the consequences of what they utter. But the non-Muslim responses have been (1) ‘It is plain rubbish’ (2) ‘who cares’ (3) to a polite, ‘Is it so?’ (But perhaps, laughing inside at the stupidity of it all).

The vast majority of Muslims can recite the Quran blindly {as they are taught to}, without understanding what they recite. Some Muslims only know a sanitized version of the Quran, which they were taught. The truth in the Quran is almost never revealed, and thus most Muslims will genuinely be shocked in disbelieve, to learn the true barbarism/contradictions in the Quran.

However, almost all individual Muslims have been very enthusiastic and vocal in spreading the sanitized version of Islam, not because they are very concerned with the non-Muslims’ welfare, but because they have been nurtured in the Madrassahs or lectured by Islamic clergy, telling them that Allah will grant them extra merit points for Heaven, if they get a non-Muslim converted (basically, it is Self-interest). So, if a Muslim tries to convert you, tell him/her, “Don’t try to book your ticket to Heaven through me”. Muslim men and women, mainly aim for a Christian, because Christians are more than twice the number of Muslims and also because the existence of the Bible proves the Quran is a fake. But generally, these new Muslim converts soon find out the truth about Islam and try their best to get out or are simply trapped in a vicious cycle.

Muslims always protest that Islam is not hateful and is tolerant of others, though Islam’s Hate/intolerance is so very evident/visible in Islamic Countries. In Saudi Arabia, 87,000 foreign non-Muslims keep the oil flowing. But, there is not a single Church or temple or religious building allowed for non-Muslims. In Indonesia, even though it is a secular government, it is the same story for the past 3 decades. What church/temples exist, are bombed/damaged/vandalized. Such is the clear visible evidence but Muslims will pretend a shocked response when informed of this. They are not that dumb.

I was lucky to have met 16 ex-Muslim reconverts to Christianity in Australia during the Christmas holidays (2005), and asked them ‘why did they convert to Islam, initially?’ Their answers were always, “I never knew Islam is so evil. I was cheated into believing in Islam. He was so loving and conscience before. I got out of it as soon as I could”. Other common views given were, “There is no freedom in being a Muslim. Everything is ‘the Quran says that and this way; you have to drop everything in the middle of something and go spending 15 minutes for ablution and prayer, at pre-dawn, morning, noon, evening, and night. I used to get up at 7, but as a Muslim I had to get up at around 5 a.m. everyday for the pre-dawn prayers. There is no time for anything else – it is a dog’s life. I don’t think a real God would tie you down with so many straightjacket rules’” Most of the women had to seek police protection – some (with their children) left their original towns after they divorced their Muslim husbands – six reconverted and married Christians – one reconverted to Christianity, but is devoting her life to her 4 children and sending them to catechism classes – 2 have devoted their lives to evangelizing and they have brought 7 Muslims to Christ, so far. One woman charged her Muslim husband for three counts of rape and he was imprisoned for 30 months”. It seems to me these Muslim lies and myths are actually contributing more damage to Islam than good. This reminds me of the proverb, “Win the battle and loose the war.”

On the other side of the spectrum, I also met nine Arab/Iranian Christian converts (men and women) from Muslim immigrant families. Almost all of these had varying degrees of threats, beatings, harassments, abuse, etc. What are these Islamic lies and myths, Muslims are nurtured in? When Allah himself confirms that he is the best schemer and plotter to trick/deceive non-Muslims {3:54 & 10:22}; then you can imagine the dangers we a dealing with. This article is designed to help innocent non-Muslims from falling prey to Islamic lies and myths. To know is half the battle won. I share my knowledge in this article with others (Due to space, I have purposely left out numerous examples). I have taken some of these ‘Islamic Lies & Myths’ from the pages of this Guestbook, which were statements made by Muslims. The others are from conversations with ex-Muslims; I deal with in the course of my evangelizing work. With the one true God on our side, the worldwide efforts of Christians are producing good results.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 1 – “Islam is peaceful” - Well, Muslims might think killing human beings is peaceful, as mentioned in Quran 8:39 – ‘kill non-Muslim men, women and children, until there are no more non-Muslims in this world’, is definitely an ideology no sensible person will call as peaceful, unless he is brain dead.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 2 – “Islam is pure” - Coconut water is also pure coconut water, so what of it? This is a subjective word, which simply means it is not adulterated – like pure Honey. There are pure poisons too. There is pure Evil – like Islam is.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 3 – “Islam is for everybody” - When Islam includes killing every non-Muslims, (8:39), then of course, it includes everybody. Coconut is for everybody too, but it all depends if everybody want it, isn’t it?

Islamic Lies & Myth no 4 – “Islam is for everybody” – but Allah says it can be only in Arabic, what about the 99.6% of the ‘everybody’ of this world, whose language is not Arabic? Shouldn’t have Allah considered the other languages, like more than the 30 religions do? Is Allah capable only in the Arabic language and ignorant of the others?

Islamic Lies & Myth no 5 – “The Quran has everything, which is in the Bible” - This common blatant lie is a joke. The Quran is one book, whereas the Bible comprises 66 books. The Quran has 433 pages, whereas the Bible is of 1,709 pages. The verses in the Bible amount to a voluminous 31,173 against the Quran's paltry 6,241 verses. The Quran has 114 Sura (chapters) against the Bible’s 1,189 chapters. And this also clearly shows, the complete ignorance of Muslims for the Bible.

Islamic Lies & Myths no 6 – “The Quran has everything, which is in the Bible” - Fact - the majority of the prophets in the Bible are not (missing) in the Quran. This also shows the Muslims’ complete ignorance of the Bible and the plentiful information missing in the Quran. This is also why in the Quran 2:159 Allah {actually it is Muhammad who was not able to copy it} cursed the Christians for hiding their scriptures (Bible). Since Allah claims he produced the scriptures for the Christians, then why are the majority of prophets in the Bible missing in the Quran? And in Quran 2:136 Allah says what was revealed to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Jewish tribes, Moses, Jesus is all in the Quran – it is not. So, Allah is actually the biggest liar to say such a big lie.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 7 – “The Quran is a wonderful masterpiece” - Fact - The chapters of the Quran are not arranged in importance, continuity, biography, chronology, significance or sequence of any sort, but are arranged by length - the longest chapter first and the last chapter with just 6 lines. Verses are disorderly arranged and jumbled up in unrelated subjects/topics. Christians will be horrified to know that there is no prophecy, no chronology, no geography, no biography of anybody (not even Muhammad), no ministry, no history, no proverbs, no parables, no miracles, no psalms, etc, generally, just do’s and don’t, like an instruction manual of a vacuum cleaner; and with punitive punishments, retaliations and rewards specified.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 8 – “The Quran has everything” – the Quran has nothing worthwhile for any intelligent person, except being a recipe for the terrorists.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 9 – “The Quran 10:38 confirms and explains the bible” – This is rubbish and a big white lie. Without all the prophets, etc this claim is a stupid joke. In any case, the Christians do not want the Quran to confirm anything for them, as they already know the Bible is the ‘Word of the Lord’ and whoever copies and uses that information is cursed by the one true God in Rev.22: 18-19.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 10 – “Islam is harmonious” – Shias killing Sunnis, Sunnis killing Shias (inside mosques), Sunnis killing Druze, Sunnis killing Kurds, Hannafi killing Ahmadiyah, the list goes on and on. Is this Islamic harmony invisible?

Islamic Lies & Myth no 11 – “Islam is charitable” – If each Muslim contributed just 1 dollar, the 1 billion dollars collected, could have built 200,000 wooden houses for 1 million homeless Acehnese Muslims in Indonesia, who are suffering in tents today, since the tsunami of dec.2004. This prompted the Indonesian Ulama Council to condemn all Muslims as the ‘Invisible Muslims’. Earthquake Victims still live in appalling conditions in Pakistan, Iran, Algeria, Turkey, etc, Shame on you Muslims, not to care for human lives. But, Muslims will willing spend money for mosques, terrorism, conversion of non-Muslims as the Quran says, all for self-interest in gaining extra merit points from Allah only for themselves {selfish}.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 12 – “Islam means unity” – Then why are there more than 200 Islamic Sects ‘blowing’ the heads off each other? If Muslims cannot agree among them, where is Islamic unity?

Islamic Lies & Myth no 13 – “Islam is the final message” – a) Then why did Baha’ Allah and his Muslim followers breakaway and form their own Bahai religion? B) Why did the Shia not agree to the final message and create their own version of the Quran? Shi’ites believe the Mahdi (Jesus) will return and restore things as they should be. Sunnis view this as a denial of Mohammed as a final prophet C) Why do the Sufi Muslims have a different version of the Quran? Sufiism says that true religion is inner truth, not outer practice, as Muslims acknowledge in complete contrast, so, Sufis look to Jesus much more than to Mohammed for inspiration, guidance and as their example D) Amadiyah Muslims recognize Muhammad but, their founder, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, who claimed also to be the Mahdi (said he will re-appear again at the end of the world in contradiction to the Quran which says Jesus will come to judge at the end of the world). The list goes on and on.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 14 – “Women are equally treated in Islam” – Quran 2:223 “Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will,” 2:228 “Women are equal in Kindness {only}, and men are a degree over women” 2:282 “one man witness equals two women witnesses.” 4:3 “marry up to four women, if you can do justice” {justice in sex? When Periods?} 4:4 “give women a dowry” {if equal why dowry?} 4:34 “Men are in charge of women.” Also in 4:34 “Men must scourge {whip or lash} their disobedient wives {like animals} and desert them to separate beds” {men to decide, when enough is enough as it is not specified}. The long list of Islamic discrimination and gender inequality goes on and on.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 15 – “Women are equally treated in Islam” - Muslim women must cover themselves from head to toe to prevent the Muslim men from getting tempted sexually. If the problem is the Muslim men, then why don’t they avoid staring at women, or Muslim men wear blinkers or castrate those Muslims who cannot control their dirty sexual minds?

Islamic Lies & Myth no 16 “Women are equally treated in Islam” – Why is there no female Islamic clergy, unlike {female} nuns, sisters, preachers, church-wardens, ministers, pastors, evangelists, etc in Christianity? Why is it in Islam, only men can be Imam, Ustaz, Ullama, Mufti, Kadi, etc? Aren’t women good enough in Islamic knowledge to hold these posts? The incident in Canada, where a Muslim woman led the prayers in October 2005 was condemned and created such an international Islamic uproar. No news about her since; I wonder what happened to her?

Islamic Lies & Myth no 17 – “Islam is fair” - The five pillars of Islam are central to Islam. One of them - pilgrimage to Mecca if a Muslim can afford, is discriminatory based on being a rich or poor Muslim. Annually, more than a million make this pilgrimage. But the 99% of the Muslims better forget it, as they have no money to fulfill this cardinal Islamic ritual. Is this a fair Islamic commandment? Even in a hundred years, only a tiny percentage would have performed Haj rituals (and mind you, a sizable number are repeat pilgrims - the generations past away - the new generations coming) out of 1.2 billion Muslims. Where is the fairness in Islam?

Islamic Lies & Myth no 18 – “Non-Muslims pray to statues/idols” -Muslims always condemn non-Muslims for praying to statues/idols – But it is obligatory for all Muslims to pray to the stone structure (Kaaba), the black stone and the 360 idols in the Kaaba. Muslims also pray to graves, Mausoleums, shrines {like the Dome in Jerusalem} etc. Muslim hypocrites have no limit to their ‘foul mouth’ for others.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 19 – “Adam was a Muslim” - If this is true then from 100% Muslim world, down to 17% Muslim population is a very bad record, right? Why did Islam drop so drastically? How did Adam become a Muslim without the Quran/Hadiths/Kaaba/Sunna/black stone/Islam/Muhammad, no Allah {even the Hindu Allah was not in existence during Adam’s time}. Adam/Eve could not read or write – so who taught them about Islam/Allah, how and when to pray and face where? Who circumcised Adam? Absurd, isn’t it?

Islamic Lies & Myth no 20 – “Jerusalem is a Holy city to Islam” – The name ‘Jerusalem’ is not even mentioned anywhere in the Quran. The word ‘Palestinian’ comes from the race, Philistines who are originally from the Island of Crete. What is there today, are Arabs who came from neighbouring countries. There is no distinct Palestinian race among the Arabs today, is there? They are Arabs plain and simple.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 21 – “Jerusalem’s Al Aqsa Mosque is from where Muhammad rose to Heaven” - This is a big Lie and a Myth. {How does anyone even know if Muhammad did go to Heaven, leave alone from Jerusalem?} This false claim is based on Muslim guessing of the Quran 17:1 {Actually, the Quran says, “…carried his servant [Muhammad] by night [on a donkey] from the Inviolable place of worship [Mecca] to the far distant place of worship [Later-Muslims claimed this place as Al-Masujidi al-Aqtza] the neighbourhood whereof.” This ‘far distant place’ could mean anywhere on earth, couldn’t it? It doesn’t even mention a mosque, does it? If Muhammad was already dead, then to whom did Allah reveal this sura? {Who coined this Sura? You see the lie/fraud in the Quran? } The fact - the Al Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock was not built yet then, when Muhammad was killed. Did he go 700Km. just in one night and that too on a donkey, over the desert, did the donkey have headlamps, was Muhammad’s body strapped or someone holding the dead body, in the extreme cold of the desert, did the donkey stop to quench his thirst, or did the donkey have a supersonic 700 Km. flight?

Fact-Jerusalem was captured by Khalif Omar only in 638, six years after Mohammed's death. Throughout this time there were only churches in Jerusalem, and a church stood on the Temple Mount, called the Church of Saint Mary, built in the Byzantine architectural style, started by Emperor Constantine 1 after 330 A.D. and completed by Emperor Justinian. In or around 711, or about 80 years after Muhammad died, Malik's son, Abd El-Wahd - who ruled from 705-715 - renovated the Church of St. Mary and converted it into a mosque. He left the structure as it was, a typical Byzantine {Eastern Roman Empire} "basilica" structure with a row of pillars with corridors on either side of the rectangular "ship" in the centre {A typical church building design}. All he did was some cosmetic renovations, removed Christian items and replaced the Christian stained glasses. He then named it Al-Aqsa, so it would sound like the one mentioned by the Muslims. This Mosque still looks more like a church, and there is no Mosque anywhere in this world, which looks like it. The Muslims have no shame to claim a church as their 3rd most holy mosque. Al Aqsa mosque did not exist when Muhammad died. Allah obviously meant the Medina Mosque. But the Muslims wanted Islam to be recognized with God’s “people of the Book” and seek some acceptance from the Jews, which Muhammad tried, but was rejected all the time, as Jews consider Muhammad a fake. Historically, from 2000 B.C., Jerusalem was Jewish and Jerusalem is a Hebrew name, originally it was called the ‘city of Judah’ and once the ‘city of God’. In ancient days, Arabs had no name for this city, but in modern times named this city ‘al-Khuds’ {‘the Holy’}

Islamic Lies & Myth no 22 – The early Christian churches were mostly built in the Byzantine architecture, especially, the dome shape on top in the pre-Islamic period. When the Muslims began to copy this adapted standard of the churches to gain recognition from the Christians, the Christians instead dumped this architectural standard, as they felt embarrassed to be associated with Islam. So you would notice very early churches with a dome on top {built before Islam was born}, like in Israel, Vatican, Italy, Greece, Russia, Rumania, Bulgaria, Turkey, etc. The Muslims are unashamed copycats. Why couldn’t they design their own standard? Muslims did their level best to copy/plagiarize the Bible, and many aspects of Christianity, but failed drastically and resorted to all sorts of Lies and Myths in the end. But, our ONE TRUE GOD protected and preserved Christianity as the true faith of God.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 23 – “Islam is not terrorism, it is a very sociable and a open religion” - Sura 8.12 says, “I will throw fear (terrorize) on the unbelievers. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.” {Here, Allah himself admits, he is a terrorist who terrorizes non-Muslims. So how can Muslims say Islam is not terrorism and contradict Allah?} Why does Allah say in the Quran 3:28 & 9:23 Muslims not to be friends of non-Believers of Islam, even if he is a brother or father? Sociable? And 25:52 asks Muslims not to obey non-Muslims. So, non-Muslims cannot employ Muslims, can they?

Islamic Lies & Myth no 24 – “The Quran is scientific” – Allah says the earth is as flat as a carpet {not a sphere} and the sun revolves around the earth and here is the best part – the sun sets everyday on planet earth {whew and without burning up the earth? How can this Allah be so idiotic?

Islamic Lies & Myth no 25 – “Islam is the fastest growing religion” – this myth is debunked in the article “Islam in fast Demise” & “The Myth about Islam being the fastest growing religion” in this website. The official OIC figure in 2005 was ‘1.2 billion in 2003’ out of this world’s 6.7 billion = 17.5%. In the Guestbook, Siti said her whole family in Indonesia is officially listed as Muslims to avoid Islamic persecution and harassment. There are probably millions of such non-Muslims in Islamic countries, thus making even the real figure much less than the 1.2 billion. Muslims can visibly see converts into Islam, but more Muslims who leave Islam are invisible to Muslims because they mostly leave Islam secretly, to protect them from being killed as apostates by the Muslims, Quran 4:89. Islam is actually dying, and top Islamic scholars are very worried of this (Please read the 2 articles for proof).

Islamic Lies & Myth no 26 – “Islam will improve life” – Muslims are risking life and limb to flee Islamic countries, legally and illegally, and they don’t want to go back, even if caught. In most cases, they had to be forcefully kicked back to Islamic countries. If Islam is so great why do Muslims want to stay in non-Muslim countries, instead of Islamic countries, – This evidence is proof of their lies.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 27 – “Islam is good” – Agreed, only for the terrorists.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 28 – “Muslims who terrorise do not know the true Islam” – Does that mean that it is okay for non-Muslims who do not know their true religion can murder Muslims? All terrorists are true Muslims because they follow what Allah said in the Quran, which is to murder non-Muslims.

Islamic Lies & Myths no 29 – “Quran is original and has never been changed” – The Quran itself admits to cancellations and changes in Quran 2:106, 16:101, 22:52. 22:52 says Satan proposed some Quranic Sura. The Quran was fabricated hundreds of years after Muhammad. None of the Authors (Hadiths) of Muhammad ever saw/met him. Sahih Bukhari died in 870 A.D. (Bukhari vol.6:385) 238 years after Muhammad was poisoned to death. In contrast, the authors/Apostles of Jesus ate, drank, slept, walked, talked, prayed, preached, and lived with him.

Islamic Lies & Myths no 30 – “Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, are Muslims and Islamic prophets” – But the Quran says in 22:52 “Never did we send a messenger or a prophet before you (Muhammad)” So who is lying – Allah or the Quran or both? How did they become Muslims before Islam was born, or when no Muslims were around them? Or when nobody knew the Quran? In other words, Allah is telling that without Muhammad/Quran, one can be a Muslim. If that is so, then what is the use of Muhammad and the Quran? Ridiculous, isn’t it?

Islamic Lies & Myth no 31 – Muslims say “what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, the tribes, Moses, and Jesus are in the Quran”. This is from Sura 2:136 in which Allah confirms that he revealed the Christian scriptures to them and it is in the Quran (“revealed unto us” [Muslims]). Revealed to Ishmael – where? What? Moses in the Bible {Exodus, Leviticus, numbers, Deuteronomy} is 137 chapters and 4,415 verses {against the Quran’s 114 chapters and 6,241 verses. This alone takes up almost the entire Quran} Jacob is another 25 chapters. Mind you, we have not considered Abraham, Isaac, the Jewish tribes, and Jesus yet. Ask any Muslim, how can one accommodate all these in the Quran? And all this doesn’t account for 25% of the bible. This proves Allah is lying to the Muslims. Allah also said, he specifically gave Jesus scriptures. But, Jesus never handed any scripture to anybody. Did Jesus throw it away because there is no such scripture in the Bible and the Quran. All we have is what apostles wrote about Jesus (Gospels). If Allah gave Jesus scriptures, then what happened to it? Where is it? It’s a mystery. The mystery draws weird because these scriptures given to Jesus and even the four Gospels are not in the Quran. Making a few inaccurate references of Jesus here and there in the Quran, are not Gospels. Did Allah lie again to the Muslims?

Islamic Lies & Myth no 32 – “There is no compulsion in religion.” - Muslims always quote only the first sentence of Quran 2:256. But never complete the whole Sura, which is “ There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejected false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold, which will never break. Allah is hearer, knower.” So this means that there is no compulsion in Islam, only if disbelievers reject ‘false deities’ {false to Islam means all other religions} and believe only in Allah in the ‘right’ direction forever. This hypocrisy of the Muslims only to pick the first sentence and mislead non-Muslims is a devious deception in cunningness, practiced by most Muslims to deceive non-Muslims as though it is a very free religion. But in reality, this Myth is furthest from the truth.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 33 – Here is the clear evidence that Allah himself lies. In Quran 2:266 “Thus Allah maketh plain his revelations unto you, in order that ye may give thought.” And then Allah says in Quran 3:7 “None knoweth its explanations, save Allah.” {The Question is - Are revelations in the Quran plain for Muslims to understand or does only Allah know the explanations to understand them? Which sura is correct and which sura is wrong? They both cannot logically be right, can it? This is a contradiction within the Quran. Why is Allah lying to all the Muslims?}

Islamic lies & Myth no 34 – “There is no contradiction in the Quran 4:82” – the above item 33 is a contradiction. In Sura 2:117 Allah confirms he created the Heavens and earth instantaneously. In Sura 41:9-12, Allah confirms that he created the earth and the Heavens in two days; Allah goes further to confirm in Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, & 25:59 that he took six days. But then again, Allah elaborates in Sura 41:9-12, to describe his creation of the Heavens and earth in 8 (2+4+2) days. If Allah can give Muslims such inaccurate information, it sure puts this Allah in the fake category, isn’t it? How can an Allah be so wrong? The list of contradictions is so long and humongous [about 286 pages], that I will direct you to ‘Internal Contradictions within the Quran’, ‘External Contradictions to the Quran’ in http://www.answering-islam.org

Islamic Lies & Myth no 35 – The Muslims all over the world say, they face the Kaaba for all prayers – This is a lie and a myth. How can anyone who is out of sight of the Kaaba face it? As the world is round, Muslims beyond sight can logically only face outer space to pray. This came about because Allah thought and said in the Quran, the world is as flat as a carpet. Why did this Allah make Muslims the laughing stork of the non-Muslims? Muslims must be ‘going bananas’ in trying to face the Kaaba. How can a supposedly creator of the earth not know the earth is a sphere? This proves Allah is a fake and Muhammad was lying about this Allah all the time – thus hasn’t Muhammad been deceiving the Muslims all along about Allah/Kaaba? That is why the pilgrimage to Mecca is cursed and every year Muslims die there in natural causes {heart attack, etc} and in accidents. In 1990 – 1,019 pilgrims accidentally died, in 1993 - 254 died, In 2004 – 127 died, in 2006 – about 400 died {this doesn’t include the 96 pilgrims died, 4 days earlier, when their 8 storeys hostel near the Kaaba collapsed in 2006} and smaller numbers died in other years. The natural and accidental deaths are unprecedented. Muslims claim it is because of the large numbers. The Mega Mela {Hindu Pilgrimage} in Allahabad, India draws 20 to 22 million every year and no stampedes. The 12th Mega Mela is the 12th cycle called Kumbh Mela {pronounced Kumba Mela} which drew 70 Million pilgrims {see internet for details}. These pilgrimages last about 12 days, each year and is generally so peaceful that even journalists/tourists find it astounding for the largest human gathering in the world {see Guinness Book}. There are many other pilgrimages of above 2 million pilgrims. Paranormal experts believe the spirits of those innocent Christians and Jews, Muhammad and his companions beheaded, are still roaming Saudi Arabia, especially in Mecca and Medina Areas for revenge. These spirits are said to be those untimely killed by Muhammad and will keep killing in revenge, until Christian and Judaism prayers and offerings are made to their spirits over years {equal to Muhammad’s killing years or more} to appease them. {This they believe is not an absolute cure}. The common incidents of seeing spirits even in daylight and the sudden hysterical screaming and collapse of groups of Muslims (especially girls/women} all over the world {Like to the Muslim girls in Jakarta/Lahore/Madrid) is due to the spirits of those innocent civilians killed by the Muslims all over the world. These spirits roam about, looking for their prey all. The paranormal experts strongly believe these spirits are causing these natural and accidental deaths all over the world (they cannot be contained), it is denser in areas of Muslim killings for revenge, targeting only Muslims. They are not known to have attacked any non-Muslim. Even if Muslims produce more Muslims, the overall Muslim world population is reducing, due to natural calamities, accidents and the rudimentary facilities in Islamic countries {especially medical}. It is as if the One True God is working against Muslims or is it the terrible curses in the Bible (Rev. 22:18-19) for copying a small part of Bible or both? Probably both.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 36 – “Islam is in Pure Arabic and cannot accurately be translated into English” – This is partly true, not because Arabic is very wonderful and great, but for the opposite reasons. This assumption comes from the Quran. If you listen to an Arabic broadcasting station speaking in Arabic, you will be shocked to hear a lot of English words thrown in into the Arabic broadcast. This is mainly because the vocabulary is lacking. For example, a lot of you reading this article have seen the word ‘Sura’ and probably know that it refers to chapters in the Quran, right? But ‘Sura’ actually means ‘fence’ in Arabic. There is no specific word for ‘chapter’, so ‘Sura’ became the norm during those days and it has carried on today. Another thing about Arabic is that they write ‘backwards’ {from right to left}. This was a very big problem, especially, in the olden days when ink and a feather {for a pen} were used for writing. If the written ink were not yet dry, your palm would smear the written words. Thus, it is time consuming, clumsy, and prone to error, even if a small smudge changed the letter to something else. {Try writing backwards and see for yourself}. With all these problems, Arabic is chosen for the revelation of the Quran – A stupid choice. Because of the Arabic language, Muslim interpretations vary and are almost never the same, among Muslim sects and between Muslims themselves. Try it yourself – ask 10 Ustaz/Imam [Islamic teacher or priest] and don’t be surprised to get 10 different answers/interpretations. So when a Muslim tells you it is not possible to translate word for word – you could sympathize with him and say, “what a Pity for Islam”. Let me prove to you that Muslims generally don’t know the meaning of what they are reciting from the Arabic Quran. Muslims, say prayers 5 times everyday in Arabic, read symbols/signs, Friday prayers and other Islamic literature in Arabic all the time, right? So one would think Muslims are sort of Arabic experts, right? But the Organisation of Islamic Conference Countries {OIC} uses their medium of communication during the conference, speeches, agreements/documents, etc in the English language. Now these Islamic countries do not send their drain sweepers to this international conference, but the best; and yet they do not conduct the conference in Arabic. This is because if a delegate refers to a Sura {of a document), some other delegate might possibly walk in with a ‘fence’. So the delegates had no choice but to dump Arabic and use the English language for their Islamic conferences every year {even though they use/recite Arabic everyday of their life}.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 37 – “Muhammad was fighting wars and in wars people do get killed” – Trying to ‘Whitewash’ Muhammad’s savage life? The dictionary’s definition of ‘War’ ‘is fighting between nations, states or widespread hostility throughout a country, such as a civil war’. There was never, any of this, during Muhammad’s lifetime in Saudi Arabia. The truth is that Muhammad never fought a war in his life, and, they were just raids in the true sense. Muhammad initiated and raided villages and towns for profit; capturing women and children for slavery, trade and sex, after beheading their men and stealing all their belongings (see “Biography of Muhammad” in this website). Out of 68 raids in his lifetime, 67 were aggressive/offensive raids started by Muhammad.

Islamic lies & Myth no 38 – “Islam is universal” – And so is Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Bahai’ism, and the thirty other religions. So what is special?

Islamic Lies & Myth no 39 – “If America don’t help Israel, the Middle East problems will be over” – Muslims always condemn America for supporting Israel. They think, without this support, the Jews will not ‘spank’ the Arab Muslims again. The Arab Muslims fought 5 wars with Israel, and each time the Jews gave the Arab Muslims a ‘bloody nose’. In 1948, Egypt, Libya, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Arab volunteers, formed a united front and simultaneously attacked {1-day-old} newly independent Israel. Israel did not have American support then, and there was no proper Israeli government yet, and no regular army, except a small defense force, ill equipped and fighters made of Jewish volunteers {male and female}, Israel not only defended itself, but also taught the Arab Muslims a lesson not to take Israel lightly as it had the backing of the one true God {and Allah Lost}. Israel has amply shown the world, without American support, and facing Allah’s armed forces from 7 Arab Muslim countries, they can spank them good and proper. I remember during the Six-day {1967} when 12,000 men of the Egyptian armed forces, fled for life in the hot Sinai desert and had their feet all burnt. I hope Muslims have learnt their lesson that they cannot defeat Israel, then and now, because the one true God is on the side of Israel {with or without America) and this Allah cannot do a thing. But of course, Muslims can always dream on.

Islamic Lies & Myths no 40 – A man from Istanbul narrated how his sister was dying of leukemia for more than a year. She faithfully prayed to Allah {as the family was Muslim then} but she was only getting worse and finally, more than a year later, being bed-ridden, Jesus appeared and consoled her. Thereafter everything happened fast, and she had a bone marrow transplant in London and eventually her family of 6 became Christians. A Pakistani Muslim’s response to this message in the Guestbook was that Allah sent Jesus to cure her. So it was Allah who cured her in his opinion.

First, no one believes this Allah has any power to answer Muslim prayers. Just for argument’s sake say Allah did initiate this cure, then this Allah must be an idiot, because by doing so, these 6 people {family} apostated. So every time Allah sends Jesus, the Muslim population reduces? Couldn’t this Allah foresee that by sending Jesus {if it is true}, Allah would be damaging the Ummah {Muslims} by reducing it? The truth is Allah never responded for more than a year’s Muslim prayer, and finally on her deathbed Jesus appears to her, and she is cured. This Turkish family then realised that Islam is a fake and converted to Christianity, because only Jesus answers your call. She became a nun and probably is responsible for bringing even more Muslims to Christ, today.

What I am trying to point out here is that, Muslims just blurt out to defend Allah, without much thought of the consequences of their words. It is as if, it is an automatic Muslim nurtured response to just lie, any which way they can, to defend this Allah.

Islamic Lies & Myth no 41 – “The Kaaba was built by Abraham.” This is a Quranic lie.

Abraham never went to Mecca. According to Judaism, the Bible, The Dead Sea Scrolls and all encyclopeadias, Abraham took the same route with his family/slaves, sheep, donkeys, etc, journeyed from Ur in Chaldea (west of Basra in Iraq) to Haran, Turkey (directly northwest along the Euphrates) and down through the Beka Valley (Syria/Lebanon) to Shechem, Hebron (in Israel), Egypt (near Alexandria) and Beersheba back in Israel along the common fertile land route. (If Abraham went to Mecca not only his sheep, donkeys and his people would have died due to the desert and lack of water, but it was not the route used in 1900 B.C. through those desolate deserts). He lived and died and is buried in Machpelah in Hebron and it is a lie to say that Abraham ever went to Mecca to build the Kaaba. There was no Jewish youth by the name of ‘Abraham’ as the Quran claims. His name was changed to ‘Abraham’ only at age 99. If this Allah is God, he should have at least got the original name of Abraham, right? Why is circumambulating the Kaaba 7 times a pagan ritual (2:158) if Abraham built it and purified it according to Allah (2:124-5)? Why would any Jew ever build anything for the Arabs, either before or today? If a Jew built the Kaaba, why doesn’t it look like a Synagogue, but as a common Mandabum (Hindu God house for Idols with one door) of a Hindu temple? Why are there 360 idols in the Kaaba and why practicing the 7 circumambulating of the Hindus? THINK - Has any Jew ever built a Cube-house of God, anywhere in this world or circumambulating 7 times? The truth - Kaaba was a Hindu Siva Temple, highjacked by Muhammad to create Islam. See the article, “The Invention of Islam.”

Islamic Lies & Myth no 42 – One of the women, I met in Australia told me, most women in Iran (except the rich, who are mostly the Islamic clergy), make do with a rag and a string for their menstruations. The local sanitary napkins are of poor quality and embarrassing leaks are common, so, she sends her sister in Iran, Australian sanitary napkins. And yet the Islamic government wants to build nuclear facilities. Their aim is not for the people’s well being, but to destroy Israel and other non-Muslim countries. It goes to show the mentality of many Muslim minds. I predict, one day, Israel will blow it all up in smoke, just like they did to Iraq’s nuclear facilities in the late 80s. History will repeat itself here, as they will never learn to co-exist with other religions peacefully. If that happens, all the billions spent will be wasted. Iran exports 4.2 million barrels of oil a day and spends huge sums for terrorism all over the world, while their own people suffer. Theoretically, by any ranking, Islamic Iran should be a very rich and powerful country instead of turning it into a sewer and pariah today - 18 million have fled Iran and most gave up Islam - is there an unseen hand here at play?

Islamic Lies & Myth no 43 – “Islam is a good and proper way of life” – President Bush once said, “The entire Arab World of 22 countries have a total GDP less than Spain alone.” Can you imagine with all that oil and with Islam and yet, they have nothing much to show for it, except grief, crime and a miserable life to its people. Saudi Arabia has an unemployment rate of 18%. Even Japan-Buddhist, India-Hindu, China-Taoist/Buddhist are all doing better. Islam is the only religion to self-destruct. If there is a way of life to take a person, backwards, then Islam it is, as the 22 Arab countries have abundantly proven. Which Muslim country adequately provides the basic necessities of life for its people - none?

Islamic Lies & Myths no 44 – In conclusion, if a Muslim brags about Islam, keep challenging him/her and you will soon find out that it is just Islamic Lies & Myths.

[Mayavi Morpheus]

What is its^^ relevance to this thread?

[learned scholar]

What is its^^ relevance to this thread?

elementary dear wattsun they wana spred islam by slammin' it down evry part of world HELP STOP THIS !!!!

I SLAM U SLAM WE ALL ISLAM

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yeh dekho kaun aagaya...parinda ka hindu counterpart